Iowa Public Television

 

Chuck Hurley/Iowa Family Policy Center & R. Ben Stone/Iowa Civil Liberties Union

posted on August 5, 2001

President George W. Bush's proposal to provide federal funds to private faith-based groups providing social services faces an uncertain future in Congressional debate. We'll discuss the faith-based initiative with Chuck Hurley, of the Iowa Family Policy Center, and with R. Ben Stone, of the Iowa Civil Liberties Union.

Borg: DURING THE CAMPAIGN OF 2000, GEORGE W. BUSH SUGGESTED THAT, IN SOME CASES, PRIVATE RELIGIOUS ORGANIZATIONS ARE BETTER EQUIPPED TO PROVIDE SOCIAL SERVICES THAN STATE AND LOCAL BUREAUCRACIES. CANDIDATE BUSH PLEDGED TO DELIVER FEDERAL FUNDS TO THOSE ORGANIZATIONS, AND TODAY PRESIDENT BUSH SEES HIS CAMPAIGN PROMISE ONE STEP CLOSER TO REALITY. TEN DAYS AGO THE SO-CALLED FAITH-BASED INITIATIVE CLEARED ITS FIRST LEGISLATIVE HURDLE... PASSING THE U.S. HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES AFTER INTENSE DEBATE. THAT LEGISLATION NOW FACES STIFF OPPOSITION IN THE U.S. SENATE. THOSE SUPPORTING THE IDEA CONTEND IT'S A LOGICAL MISSION EXTENSION OF FAITH-BASED ORGANIZATIONS. OPPONENTS SAY IT'S A GIANT STEP OVER THE LINE, SEPARATING CHURCH AND STATE. TODAY WE'RE SEEKING INSIGHT FROM TWO IOWANS: FORMER STATE REPRESENTATIVE CHUCK HURLEY, WHO IS PRESIDENT OF THE IOWA FAMILY POLICY CENTER; AND ATTORNEY R. BEN STONE... HE IS THE EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR OF THE IOWA CIVIL LIBERTIES UNION. WELCOME TO "IOWA PRESS."

THANK YOU.

IT'S GOOD TO BE HERE.

Borg: AND ACROSS THE TABLE, DAVID YEPSEN OF "THE DES MOINES REGISTER" AND MIKE GLOVER OF "THE ASSOCIATED PRESS."

Glover: MR. HURLEY, BOTTOM LINE, YOU'RE ASKING THE LEGISLATURE AND THE GOVERNOR TO PUT TAX DOLLARS INTO A RELIGIOUS-BASED INSTITUTION. WHY SHOULD MY TAX MONEY GO TO ESPOUSE YOUR RELIGIOUS VIEWS?

Hurley: YOUR TAX MONEY SHOULD GO TO PROVIDE THE BEST SERVICES POSSIBLE. MOST OF THE BEST SERVICES THROUGHOUT THE HISTORY OF THIS NATION HAVE BEEN PROVIDED BY RELIGIOUS-BASED GROUPS. WE'RE NOT ASKING YOU TO PUT ANY TAX DOLLARS TOWARD PROSELYTIZATION, WORSHIP, OR RELIGIOUS INSTRUCTION. THAT'S THE DIVIDING LINE. THAT'S THE CONSTITUTIONAL ISSUE.

Glover: HOW DO YOU DRAW THAT LINE? IN FACT, IF A RELIGIOUS GROUP PROVIDES A SERVICE, AREN'T YOU, IN FACT, OFFERING THAT RELIGIOUS VIEWPOINT?

Hurley: NO. YOU CAN PROVIDE FOOD, HOUSING, CLOTHING, JOB TRAINING, A NUMBER OF OTHER SERVICES, AS PART OF YOUR MISSION, BUT YOU CAN, WITH GOOD ACCOUNTING, BE VERY CLEAR ON WHAT MONEY PAYS FOR WHAT. NOW, I'M NOT SAYING THAT SEGMENTATION IS EASY OR THAT EVERYBODY IS GOING TO DO THIS OR WANT TO DO THIS. IN FACT, MOST RELIGIOUS GROUPS WILL NOT WANT TO DO THIS, AND THAT'S FINE WITH ME.

Yepsen: MR. STONE, WHAT'S WRONG WITH THAT? IF A RELIGIOUS GROUP HAS A WAY OF SOLVING A PROBLEM IN OUR SOCIETY, WHAT'S WRONG WITH GIVING THEM A FEW BUCKS TO HELP OUT?

Stone: WELL, THERE'S NOTHING WRONG WITH GIVING THEM SOME MONEY TO HELP OUT, PROVIDED THERE'S A MECHANISM SET UP TO PROTECT THE RELIGIOUS LIBERTY OF AMERICANS. WHAT THE PROBLEM HERE IS, IS THAT, FIRST OF ALL, THIS INITIATIVE THAT BUSH HAS IS UNNECESSARY, BECAUSE THERE ARE MANY RELIGIOUS ORGANIZATIONS ALREADY, LIKE LUTHERAN SOCIAL SERVICES AND CATHOLIC CHARITIES, THAT DO WONDERFUL WORK. AND THERE IS GOVERNMENT FUNDING THERE. THE SALVATION ARMY IS ANOTHER EXAMPLE. BUT THERE ARE PROTECTIONS THERE THAT BUSH WANTS TO TAKE AWAY THAT PROTECT PEOPLE FROM BEING PROSELYTIZED, THAT PROTECT PEOPLE FROM DISCRIMINATION IN THE PROVISIONAL SERVICES, AND ALSO THAT MAKE PEOPLE ACCOUNTABLE TO THE TAXPAYER FOR THE WISE USE OF FUNDS.

Yepsen: ISN'T THE CIVIL LIBERTIES UNION JUST TRYING TO GET RELIGION OUT OF OUR SOCIETY?

Stone: WELL, THAT'S AN ABSURD THING FOR PEOPLE TO PERCEIVE BECAUSE WE HAVE A VERY CONSISTENT RECORD OF DEFENDING PEOPLE'S RELIGIOUS LIBERTIES FROM GOVERNMENT INTRUSION. AND WE'VE REPRESENTED FUNDAMENTALIST CHRISTIANS; WE'VE REPRESENTED JEWS; WE'VE REPRESENTED ALL KINDS OF PEOPLE. SO WE ARE THERE -- THE FOUNDERS WERE WISE THAT THEY REALIZED THAT THE BEST WAY TO ENABLE RELIGION TO THRIVE IN AMERICA IS TO PROTECT IT FROM GOVERNMENT INTERFERENCE AND TO KEEP IT FROM GETTING INVOLVED IN THE GOVERNMENT AS WELL.

Borg: MR. STONE, IN ALL OF THIS, THERE'S NOT ONLY A QUESTION OF THOSE BEING SERVED, IT'S A QUESTION OF THOSE WHO DO SERVE, AND THAT IS THE QUESTION ON HIRING. THAT IS, SHOULD ORGANIZATIONS, IF INDEED THEY DO RECEIVE FEDERAL FUNDS, SHOULD THEY BE REQUIRED -- OR WHAT'S WRONG WITH HAVING THEM BE ABLE TO REJECT OR HIRE WHOMEVER THEY WANT?

Stone: WELL, THERE'S CURRENTLY EXCEPTIONS IN THE LAW THAT ALLOW CHURCHES TO DISCRIMINATE BASED ON RELIGION, AND THAT'S BEEN IN PLACE SINCE THE BEGINNING. WHAT'S WRONG HERE IS THAT YOU'VE GOT FEDERAL FINANCING. YOU'VE GOT FEDERAL-FINANCED, RELIGIOUS DISCRIMINATION OR OTHER KINDS OF DISCRIMINATION. YOU KNOW, THE BUSH DEAL THAT WAS WITH THE SALVATION ARMY THAT THEY WOULD EXCHANGE SUPPORT FOR THEIR FAITH-BASED PLAN FOR A REGULATION THAT WOULD ALLOW THE SALVATION ARMY TO DISCRIMINATE AGAINST GAYS AND LESBIANS.

Yepsen: MR. HURLEY, LET'S BRING IT HOME TO IOWA HERE. WHAT IS IT YOU WANT STATE GOVERNMENT TO DO FOR YOU?

Hurley: I WANT STATE GOVERNMENT TO FIND BEST PRACTICES. LET'S LOOK AROUND: WHO'S CURING THE ADDICTIONS AT THE BEST RATE? IS TEEN CHALLENGE REALLY THE BEST OUT THERE? THEY CLAIM AN 86-PERCENT SUCCESS RATE AFTER SEVEN YEARS OF KEEPING PEOPLE COMPLETELY FREE FROM THEIR DRUG AND ALCOHOL ADDICTIONS. THE STATE RATE IN TEXAS, WHERE THE LATEST STUDY WAS DONE COMPARING "TEEN CHALLENGE" TO SECULAR TREATMENT, WAS 9 PERCENT.

Yepsen: NOW, IN THE LAST SESSION OF THE LEGISLATURE, YOU HAD REQUESTED MONEY FOR A MARRIAGE PROTECTION INITIATIVE. HOW DOES THAT WORK?

Hurley: MARRIAGE IS ONE OF THE TOP DESIGNS FOR THE "TANNIF" MONEY, THE REPLACEMENT FOR AFDC IN '96 WITH WELFARE REFORM.

Yepsen: WELFARE MONEY.

Hurley: AND IT EXPLICITLY SAYS THAT MONEY IS TO BE USED TO PROMOTE WORK AND MARRIAGE. SO WE HAD AN INITIATIVE. IOWA HAS DONE A GREAT JOB OF PROMOTING WORK, TO PROMOTE MARRIAGE AS WELL AS ONE OF THE BEST PREVENTATIVES FOR POVERTY. IT'S THE GREATEST CORRELATOR FOR KEEPING PEOPLE OUT OF POVERTY... GREATER THAN RACE OR GEOGRAPHY OR ANYTHING.

Glover: MR. HURLEY, AREN'T YOU IN LINE WITH PEOPLE THAT WANT TO DO THINGS LIKE MIDNIGHT BASKETBALL? I MEAN, THIS IS ANOTHER NEW SPENDING PROGRAM. HOW CAN YOU JUSTIFY A NEW SPENDING PROGRAM IN AN ERA WHEN CUTTING -- WHEN THE DCI HAS TO PULL AGENTS OFF CASES BECAUSE THEY CAN'T PAY OVERTIME? THE STATE IS BROKE. HOW CAN WE AFFORD A NEW PROGRAM?

Hurley: MIKE, A YEAR AGO, THERE WAS $23 MILLION IN UNSPENT "TANNIF" MONEY SITTING IN IOWA'S TREASURY. THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT SENDS $131 MILLION EACH YEAR TO IOWA UNDER THE WELFARE REFORM BILL. AND WHAT WE'RE SAYING IS USE UNSPENT "TANNIF" DOLLARS ON WHAT CONGRESS SAID TO SPEND "TANNIF" MONEY FOR. THAT INCLUDES WORK AND MARRIAGE.

Glover: MR. STONE, WHAT'S WRONG WITH THAT? WHAT'S WRONG WITH PROMOTING MARRIAGE?

Stone: WELL, I THINK THERE'S NOTHING WRONG WITH PROMOTING MARRIAGE. AND AS LONG AS RELIGIOUS ORGANIZATIONS DO THAT, THAT'S FINE. THE ONLY PROBLEM IS WHEN THERE'S -- THEY'RE OPPORTUNITY PROSELYTIZED. THE BILL THAT THE LEGISLATURE PASSED LAST YEAR THAT THE GOVERNOR VETOED THE APPROPRIATION FOR PROVIDED NO PROTECTION FOR PEOPLE BEING PROSELYTIZED BY THE USE OF THAT MONEY. I THINK IT'S IMPORTANT TO REALIZE THAT THIS 86 PERCENT THAT "TEEN CHALLENGE" ALLEGEDLY HAS SUCCESS, THERE'S BEEN SOME RESEARCH ON THAT. BASICALLY WHAT "TEEN CHALLENGE" CAN DO, LIKE MANY RELIGIOUS ORGANIZATIONS, THEY ONLY KEEP TRACK OF PEOPLE THAT COMPLETE THE PROGRAM. ACTUALLY 40 PERCENT OF THE PEOPLE THAT ENTER THE PROGRAM NEVER COMPLETE IT. PLUS, THEY CAN CHOOSE WHO THEY WANT IN THE PROGRAM, SO THERE'S SOME SELF-SCREENING. PLUS ALL THE PEOPLE THAT WENT INTO "TEEN CHALLENGE" WERE ALREADY THROUGH SOME ADDICTION.

Glover: SO YOU DON'T BUY MR. HURLEY'S ARGUMENT THAT THE PROGRAM --

Stone: I DON'T KNOW ABOUT THE ARGUMENT, BUT I KNOW THE STATISTICS THAT SUPPOSEDLY -- YOU KNOW, THERE IS THIS COMMON BELIEF THAT RELIGIOUS-BASED OR FAITH-BASED SOCIAL PROGRAMS WORK BETTER. WELL, ACTUALLY, THE "NEWS YORK TIMES" ARTICLE LAST MAY SHOWED THAT THERE IS NO RELIABLE EVIDENCE OF ANY KIND YET DONE THAT SHOWS THAT FAITH-BASED GROUPS DELIVER SOCIAL SERVICES MORE EFFECTIVELY. THAT HAS YET TO BE DONE, WHERE, BASICALLY, THIS INITIATIVE IS BASICALLY BEING DONE ON ANECDOTES.

Glover: MR. HURLEY?

Hurley: WE'D NEED EMPIRICAL DATA AND DO A SERIES ON THIS. BUT WHAT I CAN TELL YOU IS THAT THE STUDY I CITED IS A FEDERAL STUDY. IT'S FUNDED BY THE UNITED STATES GOVERNMENT.

Glover: YOU'RE NOT FREQUENTLY FOND OF TRUSTING THE UNITED STATES GOVERNMENT. DO YOU LIKE IT IN THIS CASE?

Hurley: WHAT I'M SAYING IS IT WAS IMPARTIAL. IT WAS NOT SLANTED TOWARD FAITH-BASED GROUPS. AND THE POINT IS, FAITH-BASED GROUPS HAVE DONE THE BULK OF THE SOCIAL WELFARE FUNCTION IN THIS COUNTRY SINCE 1620.

Borg: I'M GOING TO SEE IF THERE'S A DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THE TWO OF YOU IN HOW YOU DEFINE FAITH-BASED. WHAT'S YOUR DEFINITION, MR. HURLEY?

Hurley: I HAVE A BROAD DEFINITION THAT WOULD INCLUDE ANY ORGANIZATION THAT DERIVES THEIR "UMPH", THEIR DESIRE TO HELP, FROM A FUNDAMENTAL WORLD VIEW THAT INCLUDES A SUPREME BEING.

Borg: WHAT'S YOURS, MR. STONE?

Stone: THAT'S FINE. I DON'T SEE ANY REASON -- I THINK THAT IT HAS TO BE -- OBVIOUSLY, IT CAN'T BE EXCLUSIVE OF ANY -- THE WICKENS HAVE GOT TO BE ALLOWED, THE NATION OF ISLAM. AND THAT'S GIVEN MANY MORE CONSERVATIVE RELIGIOUS LEADERS A LOT OF CONCERN THAT SUN MYUNG MOON AND THE CHURCH OF SCIENTOLOGY IS GOING TO GET FUNDING FOR THIS SERVICE.

Yepsen: MR. HURLEY, WHAT ABOUT THAT? YOU'RE A RELIGIOUS CONSERVATIVE. YOU'RE AN EVANGELICAL CHRISTIAN. ARE YOU PREPARED TO HAVE GOVERNMENT MONEY BE SPENT FOR WICKENS, FOR PROGRAMS THAT THEY RUN?

Hurley: I'M PREPARED TO HAVE GOVERNMENT MONEY GO TO BEST PRACTICES, AS LONG AS THE LINE OF PROSELYTIZATION, WHETHER IT'S WICCA OR FUNDAMENTALIST CHRISTIANITY, IS NOT CROSSED. THE H.R. 7 THAT PASSED A COUPLE WEEKS AGO IN CONGRESS HAS A VERY EXPLICIT DOCTRINE THAT SAYS THIS HAS TO CONFORM TO THE FIRST AMENDMENT AND THIS MONEY CANNOT BE USED FOR PROSELYTIZATION.

Yepsen: ALL RIGHT. IN YOUR MARRIAGE INITIATIVE HERE IN IOWA, WERE THERE PLANS TO PROSELYTIZE? WERE THERE PLANS TO PREACH A RELIGIOUS POINT OF VIEW AS PART OF THAT?

Hurley: NO, NO.

Stone: THERE'S NOTHING IN THE LAW THAT SAYS THAT CAN'T BE DONE.

Hurley: YES, THE EXISTING LAW THAT FUNDS TANNIF HAS THAT IN IT. IT'S IN THE CHARITABLE CHOICE SECTION OF THE CODE, THE FEDERAL CODE, AND IOWA CANNOT SPEND THAT MONEY TO PROSELYTIZE. IOWA WOULD BE SUED.

Glover: I'M STRUGGLING JUST A LITTLE BIT HERE. I WANT TO BACK UP JUST A SECOND. SO IF LOUIS FARRAKHAN COMES IN AND SAYS THE NATION OF ISLAM WANTS A HALF MILLION DOLLARS TO CLEAN UP A BLOCK OF A TROUBLED NEIGHBORHOOD IN CHICAGO, YOU'D BE ALL FOR IT?

Hurley: ABSOLUTELY. AKO SAMAD, HERE IN TOWN, IS DOING THAT VERY THING IN THE INNER CITY OF DES MOINES. AKAO AND I ARE FRIENDS. I APPLAUD WHAT HE'S DOING. HIS PROSELYTIZATION IS DIFFERENT THAN MINE, BUT HIS SOCIAL WORK IS VERY, VERY, VERY SIMILAR.

Yepsen: MR. STONE, A LOT OF PEOPLE DO THINK RELIGIOUS GROUPS DO A LOT OF GOOD. ARE YOU SAYING YOU DON'T THINK THAT THAT'S TRUE?

Stone: NO, THEY DO WONDERFUL THINGS. BUT THE GOVERNMENT AND -- THERE SHOULD NOT BE -- THE GOVERNMENT SHOULD DO WHAT THE GOVERNMENT DOES AND RELIGIOUS -- RELIGION SHOULD DO WHAT RELIGION IS DOING. RELIGION SHOULD BE PROTECTED FROM GOVERNMENT INTERFERENCE. ONE OF THE THINGS THAT'S GOING TO HAPPEN, YOU KNOW, IF THE NATION OF ISLAM GETS THAT MONEY, YOU KNOW, THEY'RE GOING TO GO OUT AND THEY'RE GOING TO HELP CONVERT PEOPLE. THAT'S TAXPAYER DOLLARS GOING INTO THE COLLECTION PLATE, HELPING TO PROMOTE A SERVICE THAT'S GOING TO END UP -- BECAUSE YOU CAN'T SEGREGATE.

Yepsen: IF THERE ARE PROHIBITIONS PUT IN THE LAW TO PREVENT THEM FROM DOING THAT, THEN DO YOU HAVE A PROBLEM WITH THAT?

Stone: ALL THAT THE FEDERAL LAW SAYS IS THAT IT CAN'T BE USED FOR CHURCH SERVICES. THERE'S NOTHING IN THE LAW THAT SAYS -- AS I UNDERSTAND, THERE'S NOTHING IN THE LAW THAT SAYS THAT THE PEOPLE PROVIDING SERVICES CANNOT USE THEIR RELIGIOUS BELIEFS TO DETERMINE WHO THEY WANT TO GIVE SERVICES TO. THIS IS A PRESCRIPTION THAT OPENS THE DOOR FOR DISCRIMINATION, BOTH IN HIRING OF WHO IS GOING TO WORK IN THE SOUP KITCHEN OR WHO IS GOING TO WORK IN THE SERVICE FOR PEOPLE ON DRUGS. BUT ALSO IN PROVISIONAL SERVICES... PEOPLE COME IN; THEY'RE GOING TO BE FORCED WITH A SITUATION. THERE'S NOTHING IN THE FEDERAL LAW THAT WAS PASSED BY THE HOUSE THAT SAYS IT IS ILLEGAL TO DISCRIMINATE AGAINST PEOPLE ON THE BASIS OF RELIGION.

Borg: MR. HURLEY.

Hurley: THE BILL THAT PASSED A COUPLE WEEKS AGO IS RIGHT HERE. I'VE GOT A COPY OF IT. IT SAYS, "THE PROGRAM SHALL BE IMPLEMENTED IN A MANNER CONSISTENT WITH THE ESTABLISHMENT AND FREE EXERCISE CLAUSES OF THE FIRST AMENDMENT. NO FUNDS PROVIDED THROUGH A GRANT OR AGREEMENT WITH RELIGIOUS ORGANIZATIONS SHALL BE EXPENDED FOR SECTARIAN INSTRUCTION, WORSHIP, OR PROSELYTIZATION."

Yepsen: WHY ISN'T THAT GOOD ENOUGH FOR YOU, MR. STONE?

Stone: WELL, FIRST OF ALL, I WOULD IMAGINE THAT THE DEFINITION OF VIOLATING THE FIRST AMENDMENT WOULD BE DIFFERENT BETWEEN MR. HURLEY AND MYSELF, SO THAT LANGUAGE IS MEANINGLESS. THE OTHER PROVISION THAT SAYS IT CAN'T BE USED FOR SECTARIAN PURPOSES, ALL THAT SAYS IS THAT IF THE MONEY GOES TO THE CHURCH, THEY'VE GOT TO SHOW THAT THEY'VE GOT OTHER MONEY THAT THEY USE TO SPEND ON THE CHURCH SERVICE, BUT HOW DO YOU SEPARATE IT? IN OTHER WORDS, IF YOU'RE GETTING $50,000 FROM YOUR CHURCH PLATES, YOUR COLLECTION PLATES, AND YOU'RE GETTING, YOU KNOW, $100,000 FROM THE GOVERNMENT, YOU CAN STILL SPEND AS MUCH AS YOU WANT.

Yepsen: HOW IS THAT ANY DIFFERENT, WHAT HE WANTS TO DO IN HIS MARRIAGE INITIATIVE TO TAKE STATE DOLLARS. THEY SAY THEY'RE NOT GOING TO PROSELYTIZE. HOW IS THAT ANY DIFFERENT THAN THE STATE OF IOWA SUBSIDIZING TO PICK PEOPLE TO HAUL THEIR KIDS TO RELIGIOUS SCHOOLS? YOU'RE TELLING ME THAT A STUDENT WHO IS TRANSPORTED TO A CATHOLIC SCHOOL IN IOWA DOESN'T GET RELIGIOUS INSTRUCTION AT THAT SCHOOL?

Stone: WELL, THEY DO. WE'VE ARGUED AGAINST THAT BEING CONSTITUTIONAL, AND THAT ARGUMENT WAS LOST. I THINK IT'S JUST IMPORTANT TO REALIZE THAT IF A CHURCH BECOMES DEPENDENT UPON GOVERNMENT DOLLARS -- I MEAN, THIS IS NOT POPULAR IN THE RELIGIOUS COMMUNITY. IT'S ONLY POPULAR IN CERTAIN SEGMENTS OF THE CONSERVATIVE RELIGIOUS COMMUNITY AND CERTAIN AREAS OF THE BLACK RELIGIOUS COMMUNITY. BUT BY AND LARGE, THE GOVERNMENT -- PEOPLE DON'T WANT THE GOVERNMENT INTERFERING IN THEIR CHURCHES AND IN THEIR SYNAGOGUES.

Glover: MR. HURLEY, BOTTOM LINE... WHEN A CHURCH GOES OUT AND OFFERS SERVICES, AREN'T YOU, IN ESSENCE, ASKING THE PEOPLE YOU'RE OFFERING THE SERVICES TO, TO BUY INTO YOUR RELIGIOUS VIEWS?

Hurley: YOU'RE PROVIDING A SERVICE AND, BY THE WAY, CHARITABLE CHOICE REQUIRES A SECULAR ALTERNATIVE. SO YOU ARE -- THAT'S WHY IT'S CALLED "CHARITABLE CHOICE", IS THAT NO ONE IS COMPELLED UNDER THE LAW AND UNDER THIS FUNDING STREAM AND UNDER THIS PROPOSED FUNDING STREAM TO GO TO A RELIGIOUS --

Borg: MR. HURLEY?

Hurley: SO, NO, THERE'S NO --

Glover: BUT WHEN YOU OFFER SERVICES TO PEOPLE, IMPLICIT IN THAT IS THEY'RE BUYING INTO YOUR RELIGIOUS VIEWS.

Hurley: LET'S BE VERY CLEAR. THE REASON THAT FAITH-BASED GROUPS EXIST AND HELP PEOPLE IS BECAUSE THEY BELIEVE NOT ONLY IN TIME, IN PHYSICAL NEEDS NOW, BUT IN ETERNITY. SO CLEARLY, THERE'S A DESIRE TO HELP THE PERSON NOT JUST MATERIALLY BUT SPIRITUALLY. NOW, THE ISSUE ON FUNDING --

Glover: SO YOU DO WANT TO PROSELYTIZE.

Hurley: THE ISSUE ON FUNDING IS SIMPLE, MIKE. IF YOU HAVE AN ACCOUNTANT WHO CAN KEEP TWO DIFFERENT ACCOUNTS AND WHO CAN SEGMENT FUNDS, THEN YOU'RE LEGAL. IF YOU CAN'T, DON'T GET INTO IT.

Glover: BUT CLEARLY, YOU WANT TO HELP PEOPLE NOT ONLY PHYSICALLY AND MATERIALLY, BUT SPIRITUALLY. SO YOU WANT THEM TO BUY INTO YOUR RELIGIOUS POINT OF VIEW.

Hurley: WE ALL WANT TO HELP PEOPLE IN THEIR INNER MAN. ALL OF US DO.

Glover: AND YOU WANT TO USE MY MONEY TO DO IT.

Hurley: NO, NO. I'VE SAID AT THE BEGINNING OF THE SHOW, THE MONEY IS TO SUPPLEMENT THE SECULAR PURPOSES OF REDUCING CRIME, POVERTY --

Glover: WHAT DO YOU SAY TO MR. STONE'S ARGUMENT THAT THIS IS NOT POPULAR IN MANY SEGMENTS OF RELIGIOUS COMMUNITIES?

Hurley: HE'S ABSOLUTELY RIGHT. AND I'VE SAID FROM THE BEGINNING THAT ORGANIZATIONS THAT ARE NOT DILIGENT AND ACCOUNTABLE SHOULD NOT EVEN WADE INTO THIS. THEY HAVE TO HAVE GOOD ACCOUNTING. THEY HAVE TO HAVE OPEN BOOKS AND BE FULLY ACCOUNTABLE TO THE GOVERNMENT.

Yepsen: NO RELIGIOUS ORGANIZATION IS GOING TO BE FORCED TO TAKE MONEY --

Hurley: THAT'S CORRECT.

Yepsen: ALL RIGHT. SO, MR. STONE, THE REASON CONSERVATIVES GOT INTO THIS WHOLE THING IS BECAUSE THEY DON'T THINK A LOT OF GOVERNMENT PROGRAMS HAVE WORKED IN SOLVING THE NATION'S SOCIAL ILLS. CHURCHES DO A LOT OF GOOD, SO WHY NOT HELP THEM OUT? NOW, IF YOU HAVE A PROHIBITION AGAINST PREACHING IN THERE, WHAT'S WRONG WITH THAT?

Stone: WELL, SEE, THE REASON THE CHURCHES CAN DO GOOD THINGS FOR PEOPLE IS BECAUSE THEY CAN BE WHO THEY ARE, WHICH IS RELIGIOUS PEOPLE WHO WANT TO HELP CONVERT PEOPLE AND BRING THEM TO THEIR GOD. NOW, IF YOU GIVE GOVERNMENT MONEY TO THOSE PEOPLE, THEY CAN'T DO THAT ANYMORE AND THEY LOSE THEIR EFFECTIVENESS. RELIGION SHOULD BE SEPARATE. IT SHOULD BE ALLOWED TO FLOURISH. IT SHOULD RELY ON PEOPLE TO GIVE THEM DONATIONS. IT SHOULDN'T GO TO THE GOVERNMENT BEGGING FOR MONEY BECAUSE ONCE THAT GOVERNMENT MONEY COMES INTO THAT CHURCH, THERE'S ULTIMATELY GOING TO BE BUREAUCRATIC REQUIREMENTS, BECAUSE THERE'S GOT TO BE ACCOUNTABILITY. IF THERE'S NO ACCOUNTABILITY, THIS ISN'T GOING TO GO ANYWHERE. BUT THIS IDEA THAT AN ACCOUNTANT CAN DO THIS -- WHEN YOU COMINGLE FUNDS IN ONE ORGANIZATION, YOU SIMPLY -- YOU HAVE TO HAVE SEPARATE -- THE REASON THAT CATHOLIC CHARITIES AND LUTHERAN SOCIAL SERVICES WORK IS BECAUSE THEY ARE SEPARATE CORPORATE ENTITIES.

Glover: I'D LIKE TO GO BACK TO DAVE'S QUESTION FOR A SECOND. ISN'T THIS AN ARGUMENT THAT'S ALREADY SETTLED? I MEAN, NOT ONLY DAVE'S QUESTION ABOUT SPENDING MONEY FOR PUBLIC TRANSIT TO CATHOLIC SCHOOLS, TUITION TAX CREDITS? THE GOVERNMENT SPENDS A LOT OF MONEY SUPPORTING CHURCHES, UP TO AND INCLUDING TAX DEDUCTIONS FOR CHARITABLE GIVING. ISN'T THIS AN ARGUMENT TO SETTLE, MR. STONE?

Stone: WELL, WE THINK THAT THE COURTS HAVE ALLOWED TOO MUCH, BUT THAT DOESN'T MEAN THAT WE SHOULD KEEP GOING. I THINK THAT WHAT WE HAVE HERE IS A SITUATION WHERE THIS IS REALLY -- THIS INITIATIVE THAT BUSH HAS, IT REALLY HARMS EVERYBODY INVOLVED. IT HARMS THE GOVERNMENT. I THINK IT HARMS THE TAXPAYER BECAUSE THERE'S NOT GOING TO BE ACCOUNTABILITY IN THE WAYS OF KNOWING HOW TO DO IT, AND IT'S GOING TO OPEN THE DOOR TO DISCRIMINATION. IT'S GOING TO BE BAD FOR THE CHURCHES THAT GET INVOLVED BECAUSE THEY'RE GOING TO HAVE GOVERNMENT INTERFERENCE IN THEIR RELIGIOUS PRACTICES.

Glover: MR. HURLEY, AT WHAT POINT DO WE STOP SUBSIDIZING CHURCHES, OR DO WE JUST TURN THE GOVERNMENT OVER TO PROSELYTIZE YOUR RELIGIOUS POINT OF VIEW?

Hurley: MIKE, THE CRITICAL NEED IS TO UNDERSTAND THE FUNCTION OF GOVERNMENT AND THE FUNCTION OF CHURCHES AND TO BE ABLE TO DIFFERENTIATE THE TWO. WE'RE SMART ENOUGH PEOPLE THAT -- AS BEN SAID, THE BEST IDEA FOR ANY CONGREGATION OR ANY FAITH-BASED ORGANIZATION IS TO SET UP AN AUXILIARY CORPORATION. THAT'S THE BEST WAY TO DO YOUR NON-COMINGLING. YOU CAN NON-COMINGLE WITHIN AN ORGANIZATION, BUT IT'S BETTER TO HAVE A SEPARATE AUXILIARY CORPORATION.

Yepsen: MR. HURLEY, WHERE IS THIS ISSUE HEADED IN IOWA? WE'VE TALKED SOME ABOUT PRESIDENT BUSH'S PROGRAM IN THE CONGRESS. WHAT ARE YOU GOING TO BE DOING IN THE NEXT SESSION OF THE LEGISLATURE? WHAT TYPES OF PROGRAMS WILL YOU BE ASKING THE LEGISLATURE AND THE GOVERNOR FOR MONEY?

Hurley: WE'RE GOING TO ENCOURAGE PARALLEL PROVISION FOR IOWA TAX DOLLARS TO HAVE THE CAREFUL RESTRICTIONS THAT THE FEDERAL LAW HAS ON NON-COMINGLING AND TO GO AHEAD AND BE PROACTIVE, AS STEVE GOLDSMITH IN INDIANAPOLIS HAS BEEN AND AS SEVERAL GOVERNORS HAVE BEEN AROUND THE COUNTRY... TO SAY, AS A GOVERNMENT, WE ENCOURAGE FAITH-BASED AND COMMUNITY-BASED GROUPS TO DO MORE AND MORE OF THIS FUNCTION. THERE ARE SOME VERY PROACTIVE THINGS THAT HAVE HAPPENED IN INDIANAPOLIS. THEY SET UP THE FRONT-PORCH ALLIANCE. THEY HELPED WITH THE RED TAPE. THESE CHURCHES DON'T KNOW HOW TO GET THROUGH THE BUREAUCRATIC RIGAMAROLE. BUT THE GOVERNMENT AGENCIES HAVE THAT EXPERIENCE, AND THEY CAN HELP FACILITATE WHAT FAITH-BASED GROUPS AND COMMUNITY GROUPS ARE DOING TO HELP NEEDY PEOPLE.

Yepsen: ANY PROBLEM WITH THAT, MR. STONE?

Stone: WELL, I THINK IT'S IMPORTANT FOR US TO KEEP IN MIND THAT GOVERNMENT FUNDING OF RELIGIOUS ORGANIZATIONS HAS GOT TO BE DONE VERY CAREFULLY.

Hurley: I AGREE.

Stone: AND IT'S NOT SOMETHING THAT WE CAN DO IF THERE'S GOING TO BE SITUATIONS WHERE THERE'S PROSELYTIZING AND WHERE THERE'S ANY POSSIBILITY OF THIS SUPPLEMENTING THE ABILITY OF A CHURCH TO GO OUT AND CONVERT PEOPLE. WE DON'T WANT PEOPLE CONVERTING OR CONFRONTED WITH RELIGIOUS CONVERSION EFFORTS ON THE TAXPAYERS' DOLLAR. THAT IS ABSOLUTELY SOMETHING THAT WE MUST AVOID.

Glover: MR. STONE, WE'VE HEARD A LOT ABOUT WHAT YOU AND MR. HURLEY DON'T AGREE ON. PRESUMING THAT BOTH OF YOU THINK THAT CHURCHES HELPING PEOPLE IS OKAY, IS GOOD, WHAT AREAS OF AGREEMENT DO YOU HAVE? WHERE CAN THIS ISSUE BE MOVED FORWARD WHERE BOTH OF YOU CAN AGREE ON SOMETHING?

Stone: WELL, I THINK THAT THE "MARRIAGE MATTERS AGREEMENT" THEY DID IN LINN COUNTY -- YOU KNOW, IT WAS A PRIVATE AGREEMENT AMONG MINISTERS THAT THEY WOULD DO A BETTER JOB OF COUNSELING PEOPLE AND A CERTAIN WAY ABOUT GETTING MARRIED AND THE SERIOUSNESS OF IT AND VARIOUS MEETINGS WITH THE MINISTER AND SUFFICIENT TIME TO KNOW WHETHER OR NOT YOU WANT TO GET MARRIED AND HOW TO TALK THOSE THINGS OUT. THE GOVERNMENT DOESN'T NEED TO GET INVOLVED IN DOING THAT, BECAUSE RELIGIOUS GROUPS CAN DO THAT THEMSELVES. BUT I THINK THE MARRIAGE INITIATIVE GETTING MONEY -- PROMOTING MARRIAGE IN AND OF ITSELF ISN'T BAD; IT'S WHEN THE PEOPLE DOING PROMOTION HAVE A VERY STRONG RELIGIOUS FERVOR TO IT AND ARE GOING TRY TO HOLD THAT BACK. IT REDUCES THEIR EFFECTIVENESS. WHEN YOU TAKE GOVERNMENT MONEY, YOU CAN'T PROSELYTIZE, AND THAT'S WHAT MAKES PEOPLE --

Glover: MR. HURLEY, ARE YOU FAMILIAR WITH THIS PROGRAM, AND IS THAT A GOOD THING?

Hurley: YES, IN FACT, WE INITIATED THAT IN LINN COUNTY. WE THINK THAT THE REAL ANSWER, LONG-TERM, NOT A SILVER BULLET BUT THE BEST ANSWER FOR THE MOST PEOPLE, IS TO HAVE STRONG FAMILIES. AND THAT STARTS WITH THE FOUNDATION OF A STRONG, HAPPY, LIFELONG MARRIAGE. SO THE RELIGIOUS COMMUNITY IS INTIMATELY INVOLVED IN MARRIAGE, BUT SO IS THE GOVERNMENT. THE GOVERNMENT SETS UP 50 SOME LAWS IN THIS STATE ON MARRIAGE. THE GOVERNMENT OBVIOUSLY CONDUCTS EVERY DIVORCE. THE GOVERNMENT HAS REQUIREMENTS ON WHO CAN MARRY AND HOW LONG BEFORE YOU CAN MARRY, AND SO ON.

Yepsen: AREN'T WE REALLY TALKING ABOUT APPLES AND ORANGES HERE? SOUNDS LIKE THERE WAS NO GOVERNMENT INVOLVEMENT IN THAT PROGRAM.

Hurley: BUT, DEAN, WHAT WE'RE TALKING ABOUT IS THAT THE LEGISLATURE PASSED A BILL TO HELP FUND THE INITIATION OF MARRIAGE MATTERS AGREEMENTS, AMONG OTHER THINGS. AND WE THINK THAT'S LEGITIMATE BECAUSE WHEN WE WORK WITH GROUPS, WE DON'T EXCLUDE JUDGES. WE HAVE HAD MANY COMMUNICATIONS WITH JUDGES. JUDGES DO 10 PERCENT OF THE WEDDINGS IN IOWA. WE HAVE WORKED WITH MUSLIMS. WE HAVE WORKED WITH RABBIS. WE HAVE WORKED WITH LIBERALS, CONSERVATIVES ALL OVER THE BOARD, BECAUSE THEY'RE ALL LEGALLY EMPOWERED TO MARRY.

Yepsen: I WANT TO BACK UP A LITTLE BIT AND LOOK AT A BROADER ISSUE THAT'S HERE. MR. HURLEY, WHAT SHOULD THE ROLE OF RELIGION BE IN OUR SOCIETY AND IN OUR GOVERNMENT?

Hurley: I BELIEVE, DAVID, THAT RELIGION IS OBVIOUSLY EXTREMELY PERSONAL. IT DEALS WITH ISSUES OF ETERNITY. IT DEALS WITH TRANSCENDENT TRUTH, BUT IT ALSO DEALS ON THE STREET CORNERS OF DES MOINES AND DAVENPORT AND CEDAR RAPIDS. THE PEOPLE THAT ARE OUT THERE ON THE FRONT LINES WHO ARE BRINGING IN THE ADDICTS AND WHO ARE SAYING, "WE'RE HERE TO HELP YOU." THE HOMELESS SHELTERS, GUESS WHO RUNS THOSE? PEOPLE OF DEEP RELIGIOUS FAITH. SO THERE'S A ROLE FOR RELIGION TO WORK IN CONCERT WITH THE GOVERNMENT. ONE EXCELLENT EXAMPLE IS THE NEWTON PRISON. PRISON, OBVIOUSLY, IS THE GOVERNMENT'S JOB; RIGHT? WELL, IT IS AS FAR AS KEEPING THE PUBLIC SAFE. BUT THERE IS A COMPLETELY RELIGIOUS ENTITY WITHIN ONE PRISON, THAT'S COMPLETELY FUNDED BY PRIVATE DONATIONS, THAT ARE HELPING REDUCE THE RECIDIVISM RATE, WHICH IS A STATE OBJECTIVE.

Yepsen: MR. STONE, SAME QUESTION TO YOU. WHAT SHOULD THE ROLE OF RELIGION BE IN OUR SOCIETY AND IN OUR GOVERNMENT HERE IN IOWA?

Stone: IT SHOULD BE WHATEVER THE PEOPLE WANT IT TO BE WITHOUT THE GOVERNMENT INTERFERING IN IT. I THINK THAT WHEN YOU HAVE GOVERNMENT STAYING OUT OF RELIGION, THEN PEOPLE ARE FREE TO USE THEIR CONSCIENCE TO WHETHER OR NOT TO BE RELIGIOUS, WHAT RELIGION TO BE, HOW RELIGIOUS TO BE. AND I THINK IT'S JUST IMPORTANT TO RECOGNIZE THAT RELIGIOUS BELIEF IS IMPORTANT TO MANY PEOPLE, BUT THERE ARE CERTAINLY MANY OTHERS IN OUR SOCIETY THAT DO WONDERFUL WORK AND DO GREAT THINGS TO HELP OUR SOCIETY, THAT AREN'T PARTICULARLY RELIGIOUS, AND WE SHOULDN'T BE EXCLUDING THEM FROM THE WORLD OF PEOPLE WE CONSIDER TO BE WORTHY.

Glover: MR. HURLEY, WHERE IS THIS WHOLE DEBATE HEADED IN IOWA? YOU'VE TALKED THIS YEAR AT THE LEGISLATURE ABOUT A MEASURE TO PROMOTE MARRIAGES. WHAT ELSE WOULD YOU LIKE TO GET INVOLVED WITH?

Hurley: MIKE, REAL QUICKLY, I THINK THE MOVEMENT IS HEADED TOWARD ENCOURAGING MORE PEOPLE OF GOOD WILL TO PARTICIPATE IN SOCIAL WELFARE. THAT'S WHERE THE MOVEMENT IS GOING. IT'S BEEN COMING EVER SINCE WELFARE REFORM HIT THE NEWS IN THE CONGRESS AND THE STATE OF IOWA IN THE EARLY '90S.

Glover: IS IT YOUR GOAL TO HAVE CHURCHES TAKE OVER THE WHOLE WELFARE SYSTEM?

Hurley: I WOULD NOT SAY THE WHOLE WELFARE SYSTEM. I THINK THE CHURCHES ARE AT FAULT WHEN THEY HAVE STEPPED BACK AND HAVE NOT BEEN WILLING TO HELP THE MOST NEEDY. ONE OF THE GREATEST COMMANDS IN THE CHRISTIAN SCRIPTURES IS TO HELP THE LEAST OF THESE. MANY CHURCHES DO A GREAT JOB, BUT SOME HAVE BECOME SORT OF A COUNTRY CLUB, SO TO SPEAK, AND THEY REALLY DON'T WANT TO DEAL WITH THOSE "GRUNGY PEOPLE".

Glover: MR. STONE, IS THAT WHERE THIS IS HEADED? A WHOLE DEBATE OVER CHURCHES TAKING OVER CARE FOR THE NEEDY, CHURCHES TAKING OVER THE WELFARE SYSTEM... IS THAT WHAT YOU SEE AS THE DRIVING FORCE BEHIND THIS?

Stone: I SEE A POTENTIAL FOR THAT TO BE PART OF THE DEBATE. I THINK THAT YOU'D HAVE TO BE LIVING IN A FANTASY WORLD TO THINK THAT CHURCHES BY THEMSELVES COULD TAKE CARE OF THE POOR AND OTHER SOCIAL ILLS. IT'S JUST -- IT'S A BIG COUNTRY AND THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT DOES A LOT MORE IN TERMS OF FINANCING.

Glover: IS THIS, IN FACT, AN ARGUMENT TO TRY TO END WELFARE PROGRAMS THAT A LOT OF CONSERVATIVES LIKE CHUCK HURLEY DON'T LIKE?

Stone: I THINK THAT'S A POSSIBILITY. I THINK THAT THERE'S SOME OF THAT. I DON'T WANT TO ACCUSE ANYBODY, BUT I THINK THERE ARE PEOPLE WHO WANT THIS TO HAPPEN, WHO DO SEE THAT AS A POTENTIAL DOWN THE ROAD, THAT IT WOULD BE A WAY FOR DISMANTLING THE WELFARE STATE. WELL, THE REASON THE WELFARE STATE CAME INTO BEING WAS BECAUSE THE CHURCHES COULDN'T HANDLE THE GREAT DEPRESSION. AND IT'S JUST SIMPLY UNREALISTIC TO THINK -- AND I THINK IT'S IMPORTANT TO UNDERSTAND, YOU KNOW, SOME OF THE THINGS THAT HAVE ALREADY BEEN DONE -- I MEAN, TEXAS HAS ALREADY DONE THIS. GEORGE BUSH KIND OF GOT THIS STARTED DOWN IN TEXAS, AND THERE'S BEEN PROBLEMS WITH THE KIND OF DEREGULATION OF CHILD CARE FACILITIES. A PLACE IN TEXAS, IN CORPUS CHRISTI, KIDS WERE PUNISHED BY MAKING THEM STAND IN A SEWAGE LAGOON. THE KIDS WERE THERE ALL NIGHT, AND THE PERSONS HAVE BEEN CONVICTED OF MISTREATING A CHILD. THE SAME THING HAPPENED IN MISSOURI, WHERE KIDS WERE MADE TO STAND IN MANURE PITS.

Borg: MR. STONE, MIKE ASKED JUST A MOMENT AGO MR. HURLEY'S LEGISLATIVE AGENDA. ARE YOU JUST OPPOSING ANYTHING THAT COMES ALONG, OR IS THERE SOMETHING CURRENTLY BEING DONE THAT YOU'D LIKE TO GET STOPPED?

Stone: WELL, I THINK -- WELL, WE CERTAINLY ASKED THE GOVERNOR TO VETO THE PROVISION THAT PROVIDED THE HALF MILLION DOLLARS FOR THE MARRIAGE INITIATIVE, AND HE DID THAT. HE LEFT THE LANGUAGE INTACT FOR THE FEDERAL DOLLARS TO COME. BUT BY AND LARGE, WE'RE NOT HOSTILE TO RELIGION, BUT THERE'S NOT A LOT OF LEGISLATING THAT NEEDS TO BE DONE ON RELIGION. RELIGION IS ALLOWED TO FLOURISH ON ITS OWN. SO WE CERTAINLY -- UNLESS THERE WAS SOMETHING THAT MADE IT MORE ALONG THE MODEL OF THE LUTHERAN SOCIAL SERVICES AND CATHOLIC CHARITIES, WE THINK THAT KIND OF SENDING MONEY TO RELIGIONS FROM THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT OR FROM THE STATE GOVERNMENT IS A RECIPE FOR DESTROYING BOTH THE STATE AND THE CHURCHES AND THE RELIGIOUS GROUPS THEMSELVES.

Yepsen: AND DO YOU THINK THE WELFARE STATE HAS WORKED?

Stone: I THINK IT'S A LOT BETTER THAN WHAT WAS THERE BEFORE. IT CERTAINLY DOES NOT CREATE A KIND OF UTOPIAN WORLD, AND THERE ARE CERTAINLY PROBLEMS AND THERE'S BEEN CHANGES. AND SOME OF THE STUFF IN '96, I'LL ADMIT, KIND OF SURPRISED SOME PEOPLE. IT'S BEEN A LITTLE BIT MORE EFFECTIVE THAN WE THOUGHT. THERE'S STILL SOME PROBLEMS, THOUGH. THE IDEA THAT -- ONE OF THE THINGS ABOUT -- IF YOU THINK ABOUT HOW MUCH EACH OF US PAYS IN FEDERAL TAXES AND ASK WHETHER OR NOT WE'D GIVE THAT MUCH TO OUR CHURCH OR OUR RELIGIOUS ORGANIZATION.

Glover: MR. HURLEY, IS THAT YOUR GOAL, TO DISMANTLE THE WELFARE STATE?

Hurley: NOT ENTIRELY. MY GOAL WOULD BE TO HAVE THE BEST SERVICE PROVIDED BY THE PEOPLE WHO ARE BEST ABLE TO DO IT. I THINK THAT FAMILY IS YOUR FIRST LINE OF DEFENSE WHEN THERE'S TROUBLE, ADDICTION OR WHATEVER. THE CHURCH AND SYNAGOGUES AND MOSQUES IS THE NEXT LINE OF DEFENSE. AND YOUR LAST LINE OF DEFENSE IS THE GOVERNMENT. A GOVERNMENT AGENT, AS HARD AS THEY TRY, CANNOT BRING THE KIND OF COMPASSION THAT'S NEEDED FOR INDIVIDUALS. MOST CASEWORKERS --

Stone: HOW CAN YOU SAY THAT, CHUCK?

Hurley: THEY HAVE 130 ON THEIR CASELOAD. AND THE MENTOR COUPLES, IN OUR MARRIAGE INITIATIVE AND OTHERS, HAVE ONE OR TWO COUPLES THAT THEY'RE WORKING WITH.

Borg: I'M SORRY, I HAVE TO INTERRUPT. I WISH WE COULD GO ON WITH THE DISCUSSION, BUT WE'RE OUT OF TIME. THANK YOU VERY MUCH FOR BEING WITH US. ON OUR NEXT EDITION OF "IOWA PRESS," WE CONVENE IOWA POLITICAL REPORTERS TO FOCUS ON POLICY AND POLITICS AT THE IOWA STATEHOUSE AND IN WASHINGTON, D.C. A REPORTERS ROUNDTABLE... WE'LL DISCUSS THE CAMPAIGN OF 2002, NOW SHAPING UP WITH NEW STATEHOUSE AND CONGRESSIONAL DISTRICTS, AND THE ISSUES LIKELY TO DOMINATE THOSE CAMPAIGNS. THAT'S NEXT SUNDAY AT THE SAME TIME, NOON AND 7:00, HERE ON STATEWIDE IOWA PUBLIC TELEVISION. UNTIL THEN, I'M DEAN BORG. THANKS FOR JOINING US TODAY.

Narrator: FUNDING FOR "IOWA PRESS" WAS PROVIDED BY FRIENDS OF IOWA PUBLIC TELEVISION; AND BY THE IOWA BANKERS ASSOCIATION... FOR PERSONAL, BUSINESS, AND COMMERCIAL NEEDS, IOWA BANKS HELP IOWANS REACH THEIR FINANCIAL GOALS.


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