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General Wesley Clark
THE CANDIDATES WITH DAVID YEPSEN #2406>> FUNDING FOR THIS PROGRAM WAS PROVIDED BY "FRIENDS," THE IOWA PUBLIC TELEVISION FOUNDATION... GENERATIONS OF FAMILIES AND FRIENDS WHO FEEL PASSIONATE ABOUT THE PROGRAMS THEY WATCH ON IOWA PUBLIC TELEVISION. FROM THE STUDIOS OF IOWA PUBLIC TELEVISION, IT'S "THE CANDIDATES WITH DAVID YEPSEN." TONIGHT'S GENERAL WESLEY CLARK, CANDIDATE FOR THE DEMOCRATIC PRESIDENTIAL NOMINATION, COMES TO IPTV VIA THE NEW HAMPSHIRE PUBLIC TELEVISION NETWORK. HERE IS "DES MOINES REGISTER" POLITICAL COLUMNIST DAVID YEPSEN. Yepsen: GOOD EVENING. WE BEGIN THE SECOND WEEK OF OUR TEN-PART SERIES FOCUSING ON THE IOWA CAUCUSES, THE CANDIDATES, AND THE PEOPLE WHO FOLLOW THEM. WE CONTINUE AT 6.30 P.M. THROUGH FRIDAY EVENING, AND WE BEGIN THIS WEEK'S ROUND OF PROGRAMS WITH A MAN WHO HAS DECIDED TO BYPASS THE IOWA CAUCUSES AND FOCUS HIS CAMPAIGN EFFORTS ELSEWHERE. MORE ON THAT IN A MOMENT. YOU MIGHT RECALL IN OUR FIRST ROUND OF PROGRAMS LAST WEEK, WE TALKED POLICY AND POLITICS WITH SENATOR JOHN KERRY, CONGRESSMAN DENNIS KUCINICH, AMBASSADOR CAROL MOSELEY BRAUN, AND CONGRESSMAN RICHARD GEPHARDT. AND WE GOT SOME HISTORICAL ANALYSIS FROM AUTHOR AND POLITICAL COLUMNIST JULES WITCOVER OF "THE BALTIMORE SUN." TONIGHT GENERAL WESLEY CLARK WILL MAKE HIS CASE IN HIS RUN FOR THE WHITE HOUSE, AND WE CALL ON OUR COLLEAGUES AT NEW HAMPSHIRE PUBLIC TELEVISION. THE INTERVIEW TOOK PLACE ONE WEEK AGO TONIGHT, ON MONDAY, JANUARY 5. WE GO TO NEW HAMPSHIRE PUBLIC TELEVISION, WITH RICHARD AGER AND GENERAL WESLEY CLARK. >> Ager: JOINING US NOW IN THE STUDIO, WE HAVE GENERAL WESLEY CLARK. WELCOME, GENERAL. Clark: THANKS, RICHARD. GOOD TO BE HERE. Ager: I'D LIKE TO ASK YOU, GIVE ME YOUR SENSE OF WHAT YOU THINK THIS UPCOMING ELECTION IS GOING TO BE ABOUT. Clark: WELL, WE'RE A NATION AT RISK. WE'RE AT RISK ABROAD. WE'VE GOT FORCES TIED DOWN IN IRAQ, AND WE'RE STILL GOING TO HAVE THEM IN IRAQ A YEAR FROM NOW. THE ADMINISTRATION WILL MAKE A PASTY EFFORT TO TRY TO MAKE IT LOOK LIKE THEY'VE BEEN SUCCESSFUL, BUT WE'LL STILL HAVE A LOT OF TROOPS TIED UP OVER THERE. AND THE UNITED STATES ARMY WILL HAVE BEEN VERY, VERY BADLY ABUSED IN THE PROCESS, ESPECIALLY OUR NATIONAL GUARD AND RESERVISTS WHO DIDN'T EXPECT TO SIGN UP FOR AN 18-MONTH TOUR ABROAD AND YET THAT'S WHAT'S HAPPENING TO THEM. SO THERE WILL BE FOREIGN POLICY ISSUES. NORTH KOREA WILL STILL HAVE ITS NUCLEAR WEAPONS. THERE'S UNLIKELY TO BE A BREAKTHROUGH THERE. YOU KNOW, ALL THE CROWING ABOUT QADDAFI AND NOW QADDAFI WANTS A HANDOUT BASICALLY. AND IT WASN'T THE THREAT, IT WAS THE ECONOMIC ISOLATION THAT WE PUT HIM UNDER FOR A DECADE THAT BROUGHT THIS ABOUT. AND YOU'LL HAVE -- YOU'LL HAVE THE PROBLEM OF TERRORISM. EVEN IF OSAMA BIN LADEN IS TAKEN -- AND I'D SAY THAT A 50/50 -- BUT YOU'LL STILL HAVE AL QAEDA OUT THERE AND THEY'LL STILL BE AFTER AMERICANS AND THERE MAY BE SOMETHING TERRIBLE. SO THERE WILL BE ALL OF THE SECURITY. THEN THERE'S GOING TO BE -- THE MAJOR ISSUE IS JOBS, JOBS AND HEALTH CARE, HEALTH CARE AND JOBS. IF YOU DON'T HAVE A JOB, YOU DON'T HAVE HEALTH CARE, FOR MOST AMERICANS. AND IF YOU'VE GOT A JOB, YOU MIGHT LOSE IT AND YOU MIGHT LOSE YOUR HEALTH CARE. AND THERE'S NINE MILLION PEOPLE IN THIS COUNTRY WHO DON'T HAVE JOBS. AND ALTHOUGH THE ADMINISTRATION SAYS WE'RE RECOVERING, THERE'S A WHOLE INDUSTRY OF STATISTICS. Ager: WELL, WE'LL GET INTO A LOT OF SPECIFICS I THINK IN JUST A MOMENT, BUT THE SENSE I GET FROM YOU THEN IS YOU DO SENSE THAT THE ELECTION WILL BE LARGELY SHAPED BY HOW OUR ROLE IN THE WORLD IS UNFOLDING, IN OTHER WORDS OUR INVOLVEMENT IN IRAQ. Clark: I THINK WE HAVE TO HOLD THE PRESIDENT ACCOUNTABLE FOR WHAT HE DID. THAT'S WHAT ELECTIONS ARE ABOUT. BUT IT'S NOT ONLY THE FOREIGN POLICY. HE'S NEGLECTED OUR COUNTRY. HE'S NEGLECTED THE MILLIONS OF AMERICANS WHO NEED JOBS. HE'S NEGLECTED OUR SCHOOL CHILDREN WHO ARE SUFFERING UNDER NO CHILD LEFT BEHIND. HE'S UNDERCUTTING THE ENVIRONMENT. I'M CALLING IT THE BUSH STEALTH ATTACK ON THE ENVIRONMENT. AND 44 MILLION AMERICANS WITHOUT HEALTH INSURANCE? THERE'S A NATIONAL HEALTH CARE CRISIS. Ager: SO WE HAVE A LOT TO GET TO. Clark: WE DO. Ager: I'D LIKE TO START WITH SOMETHING THAT YOU TALKED ABOUT TODAY, BECAUSE YOU MADE A MAJOR ANNOUNCEMENT TODAY. YOU UNVEILED WHAT YOU ARE CALLING THE MOST SWEEPING TAX REFORM THIS NATION HAS SEEN IN YEARS. A FAMILY OF FOUR MAKING LESS THAN $50,000, WILL NOW -- IF THIS WERE TO GO THROUGH, WOULD PAY NO TAXES. AND ALL FAMILIES WITH CHILDREN THAT MAKE UP TO $100,000 WOULD GET A TAX CUT. IN TOTAL, 31 MILLION FAMILIES GETTING A TAX REDUCTION. WHERE'S THE BAD NEWS IN THIS? Clark: WELL -- Ager: WHO'S GOING TO PAY? Clark: IT WILL NOT REQUIRE AN ADDITIONAL DIME ON THE DEFICIT. WE'RE GOING TO ASK THE TOP 1/10 OF 1 PERCENT OF AMERICAN FAMILIES, THOSE WHOSE INCOMES ARE GREATER EACH YEAR THAN ONE MILLION DOLLARS -- THAT'S 1/10 OF 1 PERCENT OF THE FAMILIES -- TO PAY 5 PERCENTAGE POINTS MORE. NOW, THESE ARE THE FAMILIES THAT GOT THE EQUIVALENT OF $128,000 -- AN AVERAGE OF $128,000 TAX CUT UNDER GEORGE W. BUSH. WE'RE GOING TO ASK THEM TO PAY 5 PERCENTAGE POINTS MORE. Ager: NOW, THAT SOUNDS LIKE A PRETTY HEFTY INCREASE. I MEAN AFTER ALL, WHEN YOU TALK ABOUT MARGINAL TAX RATES, THOSE WHO MAKE THE MOST DO PAY THE HIGHEST PERCENTAGE. Clark: THEY DO AND THEY SHOULD. AND YOU KNOW, WHAT YOU HAVE TO BE CONCERNED ABOUT IS -- WELL, YOU WANT TO BE FAIR TO EVERYBODY, BUT WHEN YOU DON'T MAKE VERY MUCH MONEY, YOU NEED THAT MONEY ON THE NECESSITIES. YOU NEED IT ON FOOD AND CLOTHING AND TRANSPORTATION AND YOUR RENT AND YOUR UTILITIES AND SO FORTH. I WAS IN THAT POSITION. I GREW UP THAT WAY. MY MOTHER -- MY FATHER DIED. MY MOTHER WAS A SECRETARY IN A BANK AND SHE -- WE LIVED ON HER SECRETARY INCOME. SHE MARRIED MY STEP-FATHER, VICTOR CLARK. I LOVED HIM DEARLY BUT HE HARDLY EVER MADE ANY MONEY BECAUSE HE'D BEEN DIVORCED AND WAS AN ALCOHOLIC. AND HE JUST HAD A HARD TIME GETTING A JOB THAT WAS COMMENSURATE, REALLY, WITH HIS ABILITY. AND AS A RESULT, WE NEVER HAD VERY MUCH MONEY IN MY FAMILY. WHEN I WENT INTO THE ARMY, I DIDN'T CARE ABOUT MONEY, BUT WHEN I GOT MARRIED AND HAD A FAMILY, WE STRUGGLED. I MEAN AN EXTRA $50 AT THE END OF THE MONTH WAS HUGE. OUR SAVINGS CONSISTED OF OUR TAX SAVINGS. I MEAN I WOULD -- I WOULD TAKE THE DEDUCTIONS OUT AS THOUGH I HAD TWO CHILDREN WHEN I ONLY HAD ONE, AND THEN THAT WOULD GIVE ME AN EXTRA $5- OR $600 AT THE END OF THE YEAR. THAT WAS OUR ANNUAL SAVINGS. WE WERE LURCHING FROM CAR DISASTER TO HOME INSURANCE DISASTER. AND IF A STORM CAME BY AND RIPPED OFF THE ROOF AND WE HAD TO PAY A $500 DEDUCTIBLE OR IF WE DISCOVERED RUST ON THE AUTOMOBILE, IT WAS A DISASTER. Ager: WELL, DO YOU GET THE SENSE THAT AMERICANS -- WORKING AMERICANS WHO DON'T HAVE A LOT OF MONEY HAVE SOME KIND OF CLASS RESENTMENT OF RICH PEOPLE? Clark: NO. Ager: I MEAN CLEARLY YOU'RE LOOKING FOR SOME SUPPORT TO TAX THOSE WHO HAVE MORE. Clark: THIS IS NOT ABOUT CLASS. THIS IS GOOD FOR EVERY AMERICAN BECAUSE, RICHARD, IF YOU GIVE WORKING FAMILIES THE MONEY THEY NEED TO BUY THE THINGS THEY NEED, THE MONEY THAT YOU GIVE THEM IS PUT RIGHT BACK INTO THE ECONOMY. IT RAISES THE AGGREGATE DEMAND IN THE ECONOMY INSTANTLY. IF YOU GIVE MONEY TO VERY WEALTHY PEOPLE, THOSE MAKING OVER A MILLION DOLLARS, THEY DON'T PUT THAT MONEY RIGHT INTO THE ECONOMY RIGHT AWAY. THEY MAY BUY STOCKS. THEY MAY INVEST OVERSEAS. THEY MAY DO A COUPLE OF BONDS. THEY MAY BUY REAL ESTATE OUT IN ASPEN, COLORADO. THEY MAY INFLATE THE PRICE OF REAL ESTATE OR THE PRICE OF STOCKS, BUT IN TERMS OF GETTING JOBS AND PUTTING MONEY BACK INTO THE ECONOMIC CYCLE, IT DOESN'T HAPPEN THAT WAY. THAT'S WHY THIS IS A MUCH MORE PRODUCTIVE WAY FOR AMERICANS AS A WHOLE TO USE THAT INCOME. SINCE 1970 -- CAN I JUST FINISH ONE THING? I JUST WANT TO MAKE CLEAR WHY I'M DOING THIS. SINCE 1970 THE GROSS NATIONAL PRODUCT -- THE DOMESTIC PRODUCT, WHAT WE PRODUCE IN AMERICA, WE'VE MORE THAN DOUBLED IN THE THIRTY-FOUR YEARS SINCE 1970. NOW, YOU WOULD JUST THINK THAT, OKAY, SO MOST PEOPLE MUST BE A LOT BETTER OFF. THEY AREN'T. IF YOU LOOK AT IT IN REAL TERMS, TAKE OUT INFLATION, 90 PERCENT OF THE PEOPLE ARE NOT BETTER OFF. IN FACT, WE'VE SUFFERED A NET AVERAGE DECLINE OF 2 PERCENT IN REAL TERMS FOR 90 PERCENT OF THE AMERICAN PEOPLE SINCE 1970. IN OTHER WORDS, DESPITE THE FACT THAT WE'VE GOT TWO WAGE EARNERS IN A FAMILY, WE'RE WORKING LONGER HOURS, THE KIDS ARE NOW IN CHILD CARE RATHER THAN BEING TAKEN CARE OF BY GRANDMOTHER, ALL OF THAT TRANSLATES TO A NET 2-PERCENT LOSS. SOMETHING IS WRONG WITH THAT EQUATION. I WANT TO HELP IT. Ager: DO YOU GET THE SENSE THAT THAT'S KIND OF A POPULIST APPROACH? DO YOU SEE YOURSELF AS A POPULIST -- Clark: NO, I SEE MYSELF AS A COMMON-SENSE AMERICAN. Ager: -- STICKING UP FOR THE ORDINARY GUY? Clark: WELL, I AM STICKING UP FOR THE ORDINARY GUY, BUT I'M ALSO STICKING UP FOR THE WEALTHY PEOPLE TOO BECAUSE IT'S NOT GOOD FOR AMERICA TO DRIVE DOWN THE INCOMES OF ORDINARY PEOPLE. IF YOU DO THAT, THEY CAN'T BUY THINGS. WE HAD THIS GOLDEN ERA IN AMERICA RIGHT AFTER WORLD WAR II. THE COMBINATION OF THE G.I. BILL AND FULL EMPLOYMENT AND V.A. LOANS LET AMERICANS BUY HOMES, BUY CARS, GET EDUCATIONS, GET JOBS, RAISE THEIR STANDARD OF LIVING DRAMATICALLY. THE 1950S, THE EARLY 1960S IT WAS A GOLDEN ERA IN AMERICA, AND EVERYBODY HAD THE AMERICAN DREAM. AND WHAT I'M EXPLAINING IS IN THE THIRTY YEARS SINCE 1970, WE'VE BEEN SORT OF TREADING WATER. AND WITH THE BUSH TAX CUTS, WE'RE ACTUALLY GOING BACKWARDS. THE AVERAGE ANNUAL FAMILY INCOME IN THIS COUNTRY FOR WORKING PEOPLE HAS FALLEN $1,500 ANNUALLY SINCE GEORGE BUSH HAS BEEN PRESIDENT. THAT'S NOT HEALTHY FOR AMERICA. Ager: SOME OF THE SPECIFICS -- YOU HAD ALREADY ANNOUNCED THAT YOU WOULD USE MONEY FROM REPEALING TAX BREAKS FOR FAMILIES EARNING OVER $200,000 TO HELP REBUILD JOBS IN THIS COUNTRY, $40 BILLION FOR HOMELAND SECURITY, ANOTHER $40 BILLION FOR AIDES TO THE STATES. ISN'T THAT THE MONEY THAT WOULD BE AIMED AT THE TAX RELIEF THAT YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT? Clark: NO. Ager: YOU'RE NOT SPENDING THE SAME DOLLAR TWICE, ARE YOU? Clark: NO, WE'RE NOT, NO. WHAT WE'RE GOING TO DO IS WE'RE GOING TO DO TWO THINGS. FIRST, WE'VE GOT TO ATTEND TO THE DEFICIT. UNDER THE BUSH TAX CUTS, WE'VE GIVEN AWAY THREE TIMES THE AMOUNT OF MONEY IT TAKES TO MAKE SOCIAL SECURITY SOLVENT FOR THE NEXT SEVENTY-FIVE YEARS. WE'VE GIVEN AWAY SO MUCH MONEY THAT WE'RE IN A SPIRAL OF EVER-INCREASING DEFICITS. AND THE TROUBLE WITH THE DEFICITS TODAY, RICHARD, IS THAT, AS YOU PROBABLY KNOW, WE'RE ALSO RUNNING A BALANCE OF PAYMENTS AND A CURRENT ACCOUNT DEFICIT. SO WE'RE A NET DEBTOR NATION. EVERY MONTH JUST TO LIVE IN AMERICA, WE'RE BORROWING BETWEEN $40- AND $50 BILLION FROM CHINA, JAPAN, SINGAPORE, AND TAIWAN. Ager: SO IT BECOMES A TRADE IMBALANCE, YES. Clark: TRADE AND PAYMENTS. WHERE BEFORE, IN THE OLD DAYS, YOU WERE IN TRADE IMBALANCE BUT YOU WERE IMPORTING CAPITAL. NOW THAT'S NOT THE CASE. WE'RE ACTUALLY GIVING THEM U.S. PAPER, TREASURY CERTIFICATES, SO THAT WE CAN LIVE IN THIS COUNTRY. NOW, WE CAN'T PASS THAT ON TO OUR CHILDREN. WE'VE GOT TO DO SOMETHING. SO WHAT WE'RE GOING TO DO IS FOR THOSE PEOPLE WHO ARE MAKING OVER $200,000 -- THAT'S THE TOP, LET'S SAY, 2 PERCENT IN INCOME -- WE'RE GOING TO GO TO THOSE PEOPLE AND ASK THEM TO GIVE BACK THE BUSH TAX CUTS. THAT'S A TRILLION DOLLARS OVER A DECADE. Ager: BUT CAN'T YOU JUST HEAR THE REPUBLICAN ADS: MAN WANTS TO RAISE TAXES AGAIN. Clark: WELL, I'M NOT WORRIED ABOUT THE REPUBLICAN ADS. I'M WORRIED ABOUT WHAT'S RIGHT FOR AMERICA. I MEAN THIS IS REALLY A TIME -- WE'RE AT A CROSSROADS IN AMERICA. WE'RE AT A TURNING POINT HERE. AMERICA IS A GREAT COUNTRY AND IT CAN BE GREATER STILL. THERE'S HOPE AND THERE'S VISION AND THERE'S OPPORTUNITY HERE, BUT NOT IF WE PROMOTE WEALTH AT THE EXPENSE OF WORKING PEOPLE AND NOT IF WE LIVE BY BORROWING OFF OUR CHILDREN'S BACKS. AND THAT'S WHAT'S HAPPENING RIGHT NOW. Ager: NOW, SPEAKING OF RIGHT NOW, BECAUSE THIS IS THE TIME WHEN I THINK THE MAJORITY OF VOTERS ARE JUST STARTING TO PAY ATTENTION, I THINK PEOPLE MUST WONDER WHAT IT IS THAT TURNED YOU AROUND IN THE LAST COUPLE OF YEARS OR SO. YOU'RE A FAIRLY RECENT MEMBER OF THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY, HAVING JOINED JUST A COUPLE OF MONTHS AGO. YOU VOTED IN YOUR VOTING RECORD FOR THE REPUBLICAN PRESIDENTS FROM NIXON THROUGH THE FIRST GEORGE BUSH. WHAT CHANGED THINGS AROUND? Clark: WELL, FIRST OF ALL, I VOTED ALWAYS FOR PEOPLE WHO WERE STRONG ON NATIONAL SECURITY, BUT I FINALLY WISED UP ENOUGH TO LOOK AT IT AT THE END OF THE COLD WAR AND SAY, YOU KNOW, IT'S NOT ALL ABOUT NATIONAL SECURITY. IT'S ABOUT PULLING THE COUNTRY TOGETHER. IT'S ABOUT GETTING THE ECONOMY MOVING. IT'S ABOUT WHO CAN REALLY LEAD. I LOOKED AT BILL CLINTON AND I SAID THERE'S A GUY WHO CAN LEAD. HE CAN MOTIVATE. HE CAN INSPIRE. HE CAN TEACH. HE CAN COACH. Ager: BUT YOU ALSO SPOKE AT FUND-RAISERS FOR THE CURRENT PRESIDENT -- Clark: WELL, NOW WAIT, WAIT, WAIT, WAIT. LET'S BE CLEAR. I NEVER SPOKE AT A FUND-RAISER FOR THE CURRENT PRESIDENT BUSH. I SPOKE AT ONE EVENT FOR A PULASKI COUNTY ARKANSAS REPUBLICAN DINNER. THEY ASKED ME TO. I DID IT BECAUSE I WANTED TO PROVE THAT I WAS NONPARTISAN. I WAS ALREADY -- EVERYBODY KNEW, AND ESPECIALLY KARL ROVE KNEW, THAT I WAS NEVER GOING TO BE A REPUBLICAN. CARL ROVE WOULDN'T LET ME WITHIN A HUNDRED MILES OF THE WHITE HOUSE IF HE COULD STOP ME. Ager: BUT STILL YOU HAD WORDS OF PRAISE FOR THE PRESIDENT THAT NIGHT. THAT'S TWO YEARS AGO. Clark: I PRAISED -- I PRAISED HIS TEAM -- COLIN POWELL, RUMSFELD, AND CHENEY -- AND IT WAS ACTUALLY MORE THAN TWO YEARS AGO. IT WAS MORE LIKE TWO AND A HALF YEARS AGO. IT WAS LATE APRIL, EARLY MAY OF 2001. AND WHAT I ACTUALLY SAID IS THAT I SAID, AS AN INTRODUCTION, THAT I HOPE THAT THEY'LL DO WELL FOR AMERICA, BUT SO DOES EVERYBODY. DIDN'T YOU HOPE THEY'D DO WELL? DOES ANY AMERICAN WANT OUR GOVERNMENT TO FAIL US? I MEAN I HOPE THAT I'LL NEVER BE IN A POSITION WHERE I WANT TO RUN FOR OFFICE -- OR I WANT THIS GOVERNMENT TO FAIL. I WANT TO SEE OUR COUNTRY SUCCEED, AND I WILL NEVER PUT PARTISAN INTEREST ABOVE THE NATIONAL INTEREST. Ager: I GUESS THE POINT, THOUGH, IS I'M SURE YOU CAN UNDERSTAND THAT SOME DEMOCRATS WOULD WANT TO KNOW, YOU KNOW, WHY THEY SHOULD ACCEPT YOU AS ONE OF THEIRS -- Clark: BECAUSE OF WHAT I JUST TOLD YOU. Ager: YOU KNOW, GIVEN YOUR CREDENTIALS AS A MILITARY MAN, I WANTED TO ASK YOU A FEW THINGS THAT AMERICANS HAVE BEEN MADE NEEDLESSLY FEARFUL IN RECENT TIMES WITH THE CONSTANT COLOR ALERTS AND, YOU KNOW, ANNOUNCEMENTS LIKE THAT. Clark: SURE. THIS IS AN ADMINISTRATION THAT LOVES TO PLAY ON THE FEARS OF AMERICANS. THAT'S THE WHOLE MESSAGE COMING OUT OF WASHINGTON. I MEAN, I DON'T KNOW WHETHER IT'S NEEDLESS OR NOT BECAUSE I DON'T SEE THE INTELLIGENCE. BUT I KNOW THIS. MY FRIEND TED SORENSEN PUTS IT THIS WAY. HE SAYS THIS ADMINISTRATION'S FOREIGN POLICY IS THEIR DOMESTIC POLICY. IT'S A POLICY OF PREEMPTIVE STRIKE, THE WAR ON TERROR, PERPETUAL FEAR, AND THEY HOPE PERPETUAL REPUBLICAN MAJORITIES, JUST BECAUSE PEOPLE ARE AFRAID. WHEN I WAS DRIVING DOWN TO ATLANTA TWO DAYS AFTER 9/11 AND THE REPUBLICAN PARTY IN ARKANSAS -- THIS LOCAL YOUNG MAN WAS STILL TRYING TO GET ME TO RUN FOR CONGRESS AS A REPUBLICAN, EVEN THOUGH I TOLD HIM NO. HE WAS STILL CALLING ME AND HE SAID -- HE SAID TO ME, "GENERAL," HE SAID, "NOW WE'VE HAD THIS TERRORIST STRIKE." HE SAID, "WHERE DO YOU THINK THE POLITICAL CENTER IS GOING TO MOVE IN AMERICA TODAY"? I SAID, "I DON'T THINK IT'S GOING TO MOVE." HE SAID, "DON'T YOU THINK PEOPLE ARE GOING TO RALLY AROUND THE PRESIDENT NOW THAT WE'RE IN A NATIONAL CRISIS?" I SAID, "I DO BUT I DON'T THINK THEY'LL MOVE." HE SAID, "GENERAL," HE SAID, "WITH ALL DUE RESPECT, SIR, THAT'S A LIMP ANSWER." HE SAID, "YOU KNOW THAT IF YOU -- "THE AMERICAN PEOPLE CAN ONLY TRUST ONE PARTY," HE SAID, "IN A CRISIS TO PROTECT AMERICA." HE SAID, "THAT'S THE REPUBLICAN PARTY." HE SAID, "AND IF YOU'RE GOING TO EVER RUN FOR OFFICE, YOU BETTER GET ASSOCIATED WITH US." THAT WAS THE MESSAGE. THAT WAS THE MESSAGE THAT REPUBLICANS WERE TRUMPETING LOUD AND CLEAR. WELL, I DON'T ACCEPT THAT. I'M NOT A REPUBLICAN. I DIDN'T BELIEVE IT THEN. I DON'T BELIEVE IT NOW. AND I'M GOING TO SHOW THE PEOPLE OF THIS COUNTRY THAT THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY IS JUST AS GOOD, JUST AS CAPABLE, IF NOT BETTER THAN THE REPUBLICANS, AT PROTECTING THEM. AND WE'LL NEVER MAKE THE KIND OF MISTAKE THAT GEORGE BUSH MADE BY TAKING US INTO A WAR THAT WE DON'T HAVE TO FIGHT. Ager: YOU KNOW, RECENTLY YOU SAID WHEN YOU WERE PRESIDENT YOU WOULD GO TO IRAQ AND IT WOULD NOT BE TO DELIVER TURKEYS IN THE MIDDLE OF THE NIGHT. WERE YOU CRITICAL OF THE PRESIDENT FOR GOING OVER THERE TO VISIT THE TROOPS AT THANKSGIVING? DID YOU THINK IT WAS A P.R. STUNT? Clark: THIS IS A PRESIDENT WHO WILL FLY HALFWAY AROUND THE WORLD FOR A PHOTO OP. HE WON'T GO HALFWAY ACROSS WASHINGTON FOR A FUNERAL FOR AN AMERICAN SERVICE MEMBER WHO'S BEEN KILLED THERE. I MEAN THAT'S JUST THE FACTS OF WHAT YOU'RE DEALING WITH. NOW, SHOULD HE HAVE GONE AND VISITED THE TROOPS ON THANKSGIVING? YOU'RE DARN RIGHT. AND ON CHRISTMAS TOO. THAT'S WHAT I DID WHEN I WAS A COMMANDER. I TOOK MY TIME WITH THE TROOPS. BUT I'LL TELL YOU SOMETHING, WHEN I GO TO IRAQ, I'M GOING TO GO THERE TO DO BUSINESS, NOT JUST BOOST TROOP MORALE. THERE'S A WHOLE LOT OF BUSINESS TO BE DONE THERE IN IRAQ. AND MAYBE THE PRESIDENT DIDN'T FEEL LIKE HE WAS CAPABLE OF DOING IT. I DON'T KNOW. MAYBE HE DIDN'T WANT TO BUT AS PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES, I WANT TO TALK TO THOSE IRAQI LEADERS. I WANT TO MEET THEM. I WANT TO FIND OUT WHAT KIND OF COUNTRY THEY WANT, AND I WANT TO GET THE FULL LOWDOWN FROM THE U.S. MILITARY, FROM THE COMMANDERS, FROM THE SECOND IN COMMANDS, FROM THE STAFF. I WANT TO REACH OUT AND TOUCH PEOPLE AND LOOK SOLDIERS IN THE EYE, AND I WANT TO DO THE SAME THING WITH IRAQI CITIZENS BECAUSE THAT'S WHAT LEADERSHIP IS ALL ABOUT. Ager: HOW IMPORTANT IS THE UPCOMING TRIAL OF SADDAM HUSSEIN? I MEAN YOU'VE RECENTLY BEEN INVOLVED IN THE TRIAL OF ANOTHER DICTATOR, MILOSEVIC. BUT LOOKING AHEAD TO HUSSEIN'S TRIAL, WHAT SHOULD THE AMERICAN ROLE BE IN THAT? HOW DISTANT OR CLOSE SHOULD WE BE INVOLVED? Clark: WELL, I THINK HE HAS TO BE TRIED IN IRAQ BY THE IRAQIS. I THINK WE SHOULD HAVE A VERY PROMINENT ROLE ALONG WITH OTHER INTERNATIONAL AGENCIES AND OTHER NATIONS IN HELPING TO SET UP THE CONDITIONS FOR THE TRIAL. WE SHOULD WANT NOT ONLY TO SEE JUSTICE DONE BUT THAT THE WORLD WOULD PERCEIVE IT AS JUSTICE DONE. SO WE WANT TO SEE THE FULL EVIDENCE ARRAYED OUT THERE. WE WANT TO BRING -- FIND A WAY TO BRING THE INTERNATIONAL EVIDENCE. IT MAY NOT NECESSARILY FIGURE INTO THE TRIAL, BUT HAVE A PARALLEL CONCURRENT HEARING AND LET ALL THESE OTHER NATIONS THAT HAVE GOT COMPLAINTS AGAINST SADDAM LAY THEM OUT ON THE TABLE. AND MAKE SURE THAT THE EVIDENCE IS FULLY AIRED AND THAT THE ACCUSED HAS A CHANCE TO CROSS-EXAMINE AND TRY TO DEFEND HIMSELF AND SO FORTH. I MEAN THERE'S NO DOUBT ABOUT WHAT HE DID, BUT WE WANT THERE TO BE NO DOUBT IN ANYBODY'S MIND ABOUT WHAT HE DID. AND FOR THAT, WE'RE GOING TO NEED SOME AMERICAN LEADERSHIP IN TERMS OF GETTING THE RULES OF EVIDENCE AND THE RULES OF PROCEDURE IN THAT TRIAL ESTABLISHED THE RIGHT WAY. ONCE IT GETS GOING, WE SHOULD STILL BE ADVISING AND COACHING AND ASSISTING PROCEDURALLY, BUT THE DEATH PENALTY SHOULD BE ON THE TABLE AND IT SHOULD BE UP TO THE IRAQIS TO MAKE THAT DECISION. Ager: YOU KNOW, SPEAKING OF YOUR EXPERIENCE IN THE BALKANS, IT WAS CLEARLY A SUCCESSFUL CAMPAIGN. YOU DIDN'T LOSE A SINGLE SOLDIER. BUT DESPITE THE -- Clark: NOT IN COMBAT. Ager: RIGHT. BUT YOU WERE RELIEVED OF YOUR COMMAND TOWARD THE END. AND THEN LAST FALL THE THEN JOINT CHIEFS CHAIRMAN HUGH SHELTON SAID YOU HAD BEEN LET GO OVER -- AND THIS IS THE QUOTE FROM GENERAL SHELTON -- CHARACTER AND INTEGRITY ISSUES. WHAT DID YOU DO THAT UPSET YOUR SUPERIORS? Clark: WELL, WE HAD A POLICY -- Ager: BECAUSE I THINK A LOT OF PEOPLE ARE MYSTIFIED ABOUT THAT. Clark: WELL, IT IS A VERY MYSTERIOUS THING. WE HAD A POLICY DISAGREEMENT. BASICALLY WHAT HAPPENED WAS THAT I BELIEVED THAT THE UNITED STATES COULDN'T STAND BY AND WATCH ANOTHER ROUND OF ETHNIC CLEANSING TAKE PLACE. Ager: HOW MUCH OF THAT DID YOU SEE BEFORE WE ACTUALLY INTERVENED? Clark: WELL, IT WAS ACTUALLY -- IT WAS STARTING AS EARLY AS THE SPRING OF 1998. AND I HAD SENT A WARNING LETTER TO THE PENTAGON IN MARCH OF '98 AND TOLD THEM THAT MILOSEVIC WAS GOING TO MOVE AHEAD WITH A WAR AND THAT THEY NEEDED TO -- THEY NEEDED TO REJUVENATE THE THREAT AGAINST MILOSEVIC THAT THE BUSH ADMINISTRATION HAD ISSUED IN 1992, THE SO-CALLED CHRISTMAS WARNING. AND THE PENTAGON JUST DIDN'T WANT TO HEAR IT. AND THEY CALLED ME AND THEY SAID, "HEY, WES, HEY, LEAVE US ALONE BACK HERE. WE'VE GOT TOO MUCH ON OUR PLATES. YOU'RE BOTHERING US." YOU KNOW, MY DUTY WAS TO BOTHER THE PENTAGON. AND I COULDN'T SEE THAT THE UNITED STATES SHOULD STAND BY AND LET ANOTHER MILLION AND A HALF PEOPLE BE ETHNICALLY CLEANSED. SO WHEN THE PENTAGON DIDN'T LISTEN, I SAID, "WELL, OKAY, IF YOU WON'T LISTEN, I'D LIKE TO TALK TO THE WHITE HOUSE AND I'D LIKE YOUR PERMISSION TO DO SO." AND THEY SAID, "OKAY, FINE." I TALKED TO THE WHITE HOUSE AND THE WHITE HOUSE AGREED WITH ME. SO DID THE SECRETARY OF STATE. SO DID PEOPLE LIKE RICHARD HOLBROOK. AND SO THE RESULT OF THAT WAS THAT THE PENTAGON GOT THEIR NOSE OUT OF JOINT. THEY HAD A COMMANDER WHO WAS ACTUALLY SUPPORTING THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, NOT THE COZY REPUBLICAN SECRETARY OF DEFENSE WHO CUT A DEAL WITH THE REPUBLICAN SENATORS. AND NOTHING AGAINST REPUBLICANS, EXCEPT THAT MY DUTY WAS TO THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA AND IT WAS ALSO TO THE NATO CHAIN OF COMMAND. AND IT WAS MY DUTY TO PREVENT ANOTHER ROUND OF ETHNIC CLEANSING. Ager: SO YOU WANTED TO INTERVENE. I'M WONDERING WHAT IS THE ESSENTIAL DIFFERENCE BETWEEN MILOSEVIC, WHO CLEARLY WAS AN OPPRESSIVE DICTATOR, AND SADDAM HUSSEIN, BECAUSE THE INTERVENTION THERE YOU OPPOSED. Clark: WELL, IMMINENT THREAT. THERE WAS AN IMMINENT DANGER OF ANOTHER WAR IN THE BALKANS WITH ETHNIC CLEANSING ACTUALLY GOING ON. SADDAM HUSSEIN WAS NOT AN IMMINENT THREAT TO THE UNITED STATES. HE DIDN'T HAVE ANY CONNECTION WITH 9/11. HE DID NOT HAVE A NUCLEAR WEAPON. WE HAVEN'T FOUND ANYTHING SINCE WE'VE BEEN IN THERE. I MEAN THERE WERE A LOT OF US WHO WERE WILLING TO LISTEN TO THE INTELLIGENCE SAY, WELL, HE'S PROBABLY GOT STUFF, BUT NONE OF US WHO HAD SEEN IT AND WHO WEREN'T ANY LONGER UNDER THE CONTROL OF THE CIVILIAN LEADERSHIP WERE -- GUYS LIKE TONY ZINNI AND JOE HOAR, OTHER RETIRED FOUR-STAR GENERALS, JOINED ME IN SAYING NO IMMINENT THREAT AND NO CONNECTION TO THE WAR ON TERROR, WHICH IS NOT A NECESSARY WAR. Ager: WE SHOULD PROBABLY MOVE ON A LITTLE BIT TO THE CAMPAIGN ITSELF. YOU'RE SKIPPING IOWA. I'M WONDERING WHY. Clark: JUST NOT ENOUGH TIME. I DIDN'T GET INTO THE RACE UNTIL MID SEPTEMBER. RICHARD, I ENTERED -- Ager: YOU REALLY HAD TO CHOOSE BETWEEN NEW HAMPSHIRE AND IOWA? Clark: YEAH, I REALLY DID. I MEAN WE CAME IN WITH FOUR NOS. IT'S THE FOUR NOS. NO MONEY. NO MONEY MEANT YOU COULDN'T HIRE A STAFF. IF YOU DIDN'T HAVE A STAFF, YOU COULDN'T DO ANY PLANNING. AND THERE WERE NO POLICY PAPERS WRITTEN, SO YOU DIDN'T REALLY EVEN NO IN TERMS OF THE POLICY STUFF -- I MEAN I KNEW WHAT I WANTED TO DO, BUT I COULDN'T ACTUALLY CHECK IT AND WRITE IT OUT. AND NEVER RAN FOR ELECTIVE OFFICE BEFORE. I RAN BECAUSE THIS NATION IS AT RISK. AND A LOT OF PEOPLE ASKED ME TO PRESENT MYSELF TO THE AMERICAN PEOPLE. THEY SAID, "YOU'RE A GOOD LEADER. YOU'RE A GOOD MAN. YOU OWE IT TO THE COUNTRY." Ager: I REMEMBER SEEING YOU WHEN YOU WERE INTRODUCING YOURSELF, AND YOU SAID, "I'M NOT A POLITICIAN." HERE WE ARE NOW. IT'S EARLY JANUARY. ARE YOU READY TO SAY YOU ARE A POLITICIAN? Clark: NO, I'M A LEADER. I'M NOT A POLITICIAN. Ager: OKAY. LET'S LOOK AT CAMPAIGNING IN SOUTH CAROLINA, BECAUSE YOU'VE BEEN DOWN THERE A FAIR AMOUNT LATELY. YOU SPOKE A LOT ABOUT YOUR HERITAGE OF SOUTHERN VALUES, INCLUDING PATRIOTISM, RELIGIOUS FAITH. DO YOU BELIEVE THE DEMOCRATS MUST PICK, IN ORDER TO BE SUCCESSFUL, A CANDIDATE FROM THE SOUTH? I MEAN THERE'S A FEW IN THIS RACE BUT -- LET'S PUT IT THIS WAY: CAN DEMOCRATS ELECT A CANDIDATE FROM THE NORTHEAST? Clark: THE DEMOCRATS CAN PICK ANYBODY THAT WE WANT. Ager: BUT CAN THEY ELECT ONE? Clark: BUT CAN HE WIN THE GENERAL ELECTION? I'D BE SURPRISED. AND I'D BE SURPRISED IF YOU CAN HAVE A CANDIDATE WHO CAN RUN WITHOUT INTERNATIONAL EXPERIENCE. WE ALREADY HAVE THE EXAMPLE OF A GOVERNOR WHO WAS UNLEARNED AND INEXPERIENCED IN FOREIGN AFFAIRS -- Ager: AND OF COURSE, YOU'RE REFERRING TO GEORGE BUSH. Clark: -- WHO TRIED TO ASSEMBLE A QUALIFIED TEAM AROUND HIM. WE ALL ADMIRED THEM. REMEMBER, THEY WERE CALLED THE DREAM TEAM. I MEAN WHO COULD YOU GET BETTER THAN COLIN POWELL AND DICK CHENEY AND RUMSFELD? Ager: PUT YOUR CRITIQUE IN ON THAT. WELL, WHAT ABOUT HOWARD DEAN? HE'S ANOTHER GOVERNOR WHO ADMITTEDLY SAYS THERE'S A HOLE IN HIS RESUME. Clark: WELL, THAT'S UP FOR THE AMERICAN TO DECIDE. Ager: WELL, WHAT'S YOUR OPINION? Clark: I WILL TELL YOU THIS, THAT IF GEORGE W. BUSH WAS QUALIFIED TO BE PRESIDENT, ANY OF THE NINE DEMOCRATS ARE MORE QUALIFIED THAN HE IS. Ager: NOW, IN TERMS OF APPEALING TO THE ELECTORATE TOO, DO YOU THINK IT'S IMPORTANT FOR A CANDIDATE TO HAVE AN AFFILIATION WITH A CHURCH OR A RELIGIOUS ORGANIZATION, SYNAGOGUE, SOMETHING LIKE THAT? Clark: YOU KNOW, THAT'S REALLY UP TO THE CANDIDATE. THE ELECTORATE WILL TAKE A WHOLE-PERSON VIEW OF THE CANDIDATE. THEY'LL PUT EVERYTHING TOGETHER, AND IT WILL EITHER ADD UP OR IT WILL LOOK PHONY. RECENT CONVERSIONS WILL LOOK PHONY. PEOPLE HAVE TO BE GENUINE. THAT'S WHO THEY ARE. I MEAN, WHEN YOU'RE IN YOUR FIFTIES -- AND I THINK EVERYBODY IN THIS RACE IS IN THEIR FIFTIES AT LEAST -- YOU'RE JUST WHO YOU ARE AND YOU EITHER RING TRUE OR YOU DON'T. Ager: YOU KNOW, WE ONLY HAVE JUST A COUPLE OF MINUTES LEFT, AND THERE'S A LOT OF IMPORTANT ISSUES. HEALTH CARE IS ONE. YOU WANT TO EXPAND COVERAGE TO INCLUDE MOST OF THOSE. NOW UNINSURED, HOW WOULD YOU DO THAT? Clark: WELL, WE'D USE SOME OF THAT MONEY WE'RE TAKING BACK FROM THE WEALTHIEST AMERICANS. Ager: HOW MUCH ARE WE TAKING BACK IN TOTAL? YOU'RE FUNDING A LOT OF THINGS WITH THAT. Clark: WE'RE TAKING BACK TWO AND A THIRD TRILLION DOLLARS. WE'LL USE ABOUT ONE TRILLION DOLLARS TO FIX HEALTH CARE AND EDUCATION IN THIS COUNTRY. NOW, WHAT WE'LL DO IS WE'LL GUARANTEE COVERAGE FOR EVERY CHILD. WE'LL MAKE HEALTH INSURANCE ACCESSIBLE TO EVERY AMERICAN. WE'LL FIX THE PRESCRIPTION DRUG BENEFIT THAT'S BEEN PASSED BY CONGRESS THAT'S REALLY A LOUSY BILL, AND WE'LL HELP PEOPLE WHO CAN'T AFFORD TO INSURE THEIR CHILDREN, AND WE'LL HELP PEOPLE UP TO A CERTAIN LIMIT WHO CAN'T AFFORD TO GET HEALTH INSURANCE. WE'LL WORK FOR COST CONTAINMENT OF THE HEALTH SYSTEM, SO WE'RE ABLE TO GET MORE VALUE FOR THE DOLLAR ON HEALTH INSURANCE. Ager: A COUPLE OF, I GUESS, OTHER ISSUES. THE WAR ON DRUGS THAT'S GOING ON RIGHT NOW, WOULD YOU -- I MEAN THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT CURRENTLY GOES AFTER STATES THAT TRY TO CREATE THE OPTION FOR MEDICAL USE OF MARIJUANA. WOULD YOU STOP THOSE ACTIONS BY -- Clark: YES, I WOULD. I THINK THAT'S RIDICULOUS. Ager: AND GAY MARRIAGE? DO YOU THINK THAT'S GOING TO BE AN ISSUE? Clark: I'M IN FAVOR OF EQUAL RIGHTS FOR ALL PEOPLE. WHETHER YOU CALL IT MARRIAGE, THAT'S UP TO THE CHURCH OR IT'S UP TO THE STATE IF THEY WANT TO PASS IT AND SAY THIS IS, QUOTE, A MARRIAGE. BUT IN TERMS OF EQUAL RIGHTS, IF TWO CONSENTING ADULTS WANT TO MAKE A CONTRACT, WHETHER THEY'RE SAME SEX OR A DIFFERENT SEX, THAT SAYS WE HAVE JOINT DOMICILE, WE'RE FAMILY, IF YOU'RE SICK I'M GOING TO VISIT YOU IN THE HOSPITAL AS FAMILY, IF I DIE YOU'RE GOING TO RECEIVE ALL OF MY ESTATE, WELL, THAT SHOULD BE PERMITTED. Ager: AND THAT IS GOING TO BE THE FINAL WORD. THANK YOU SO MUCH, GENERAL WESLEY CLARK. Clark: THANK YOU, RICHARD. GOOD TO BE WITH YOU. Ager: THANK YOU. >> Yepsen: OUR THANKS TO NEW HAMPSHIRE PUBLIC TELEVISION AND TO RICHARD AGER FOR THOSE CAMPAIGN INSIGHTS FROM DEMOCRATIC PRESIDENTIAL CONTENDER WESLEY CLARK. TOMORROW NIGHT WE DISCUSS THE ISSUES AND POLITICS OF THE PRESIDENTIAL CAMPAIGN OF 2004 WITH SENATOR TOM HARKIN, WHO LATE LAST WEEK ENDORSED HOWARD DEAN FOR THE DEMOCRATIC PRESIDENTIAL NOMINATION. WE CLOSE WITH A PROGRAM REMINDER: AS YOU MIGHT OR MIGHT NOT KNOW IN THE DIN OF ALL THE MEDIA COVERAGE OUT ON THE CAMPAIGN TRAIL, THE SECOND SESSION OF THE 80TH IOWA GENERAL ASSEMBLY CONVENED TODAY AT THE IOWA STATEHOUSE. TOMORROW MORNING GOVERNOR TOM VILSACK DELIVERS HIS 2004 CONDITION OF THE STATE ADDRESS TO A JOINT SESSION OF THE GENERAL ASSEMBLY, AND IOWA PUBLIC TELEVISION WILL BE THERE LIVE AT 10:00 IN THE MORNING, WITH A REBROADCAST AT 7:00 TOMORROW EVENING, IMMEDIATELY FOLLOWING OUR VISIT WITH TOM HARKIN. I HOPE YOU'LL BE JOINING US. I'M DAVID YEPSEN OF "THE DES MOINES REGISTER." THANKS FOR BEING WITH US HERE ON STATEWIDE IOWA PUBLIC TELEVISION. CAPTIONS BY: MIDWEST CAPTIONING DES MOINES, IOWA. FUNDING FOR THIS PROGRAM WAS PROVIDED BY "FRIENDS," THE IOWA PUBLIC TELEVISION FOUNDATION... GENERATIONS OF FAMILIES AND FRIENDS WHO FEEL PASSIONATE ABOUT THE PROGRAMS THEY WATCH ON IOWA PUBLIC TELEVISION. |
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