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Senator Tom Harkin
THE CANDIDATES WITH DAVID YEPSEN #2407>> FUNDING FOR THIS PROGRAM WAS PROVIDED BY "FRIENDS," THE IOWA PUBLIC TELEVISION FOUNDATION... GENERATIONS OF FAMILIES AND FRIENDS WHO FEEL PASSIONATE ABOUT THE PROGRAMS THEY WATCH ON IOWA PUBLIC TELEVISION. FROM THE STUDIOS OF IOWA PUBLIC TELEVISION, IT'S "THE CANDIDATES WITH DAVID YEPSEN." TONIGHT DAVID YEPSEN'S GUEST IS UNITED STATES SENATOR TOM HARKIN. HERE IS "DES MOINES REGISTER" POLITICAL COLUMNIST DAVID YEPSEN. Yepsen: GOOD EVENING. WE CONTINUE OUR POLITICAL DIALOGUE WITH THE DEMOCRATIC PRESIDENTIAL CONTENDERS AND THE PEOPLE WHO FOLLOW THEM. TONIGHT WE WELCOME TO OUR IOWA PUBLIC TELEVISION STUDIOS A MAN WHOSE ENDORSEMENT WAS PURSUED BY EACH OF THE DEMOCRATIC CONTENDERS. HE PLAYED HIS CARDS CLOSE TO THE VEST, AND HIS SUPPORT HAS BEEN THE SUBJECT OF OPEN SPECULATION FOR MONTHS. THE SUSPENSE IS OVER AND SENATOR TOM HARKIN HAS ENDORSED HOWARD DEAN, THE GOVERNOR OF VERMONT, THAT TO THE DISAPPOINTMENT OF OTHER CANDIDATES IN THE FIELD AND TO THE DELIGHT OF DEAN AND HIS SUPPORTERS. THE VALUE OF SENATOR HARKIN'S ENDORSEMENT IS NO SECRET. HE'S A POPULAR HOME-STATE POLITICIAN NOW IN HIS THIRTIETH YEAR REPRESENTING IOWA IN THE UNITED STATES CONGRESS. SENATOR HARKIN, WELCOME TO IOWA PUBLIC TELEVISION. Harkin: DAVID, IT'S ALWAYS GOOD TO BE HERE WITH YOU. Yepsen: GOOD TO HAVE YOU BACK. WELL, SENATOR, THERE'S A STORY OUT NOW. FOX NEWS IS REPORTING THAT YOU SENT AN E-MAIL TO SOMEBODY SAYING THAT YOU THOUGHT DICK GEPHARDT WOULD BE A BETTER PRESIDENT BUT THAT HOWARD DEAN IS MORE ELECTABLE. TELL US ABOUT THAT. IS THAT CORRECT? Harkin: WELL, FIRST OF ALL, DAVID, IT IS NO SECRET THAT I LIKE DICK GEPHARDT. HE'S BEEN A FRIEND OF MINE FOR I GUESS TWENTY-FIVE YEARS. AND I'VE SAID I LIKE ALL THESE CANDIDATES. AS A MATTER OF FACT, I COULD SAY THAT EACH ONE OF THOSE CANDIDATES WILL MAKE A BETTER PRESIDENT THAN PRESIDENT BUSH. SO AGAIN, THAT'S NOT THE POINT. THE POINT IS I LOOKED AT ALL THESE CANDIDATES. I FOLLOWED THEM VERY CLOSELY. AND YOU KNOW I HAVE BEEN EXTREMELY NEUTRAL IN THIS RACE. I WANTED TO MAKE SURE EACH CANDIDATE COULD GET THEIR MESSAGE OUT, HAD A LEVEL PLAYING FIELD IN IOWA. AND REALLY, QUITE FRANKLY, IN THE BEGINNING I DIDN'T KNOW IF I'D EVER ENDORSE ANYONE. BUT IT BECAME CLEAR TO ME THAT ONE CANDIDATE ROSE TO THE TOP IN TERMS OF HIS MESSAGE, HIS CHARACTER, HIS ABILITY TO ORGANIZE AND MOTIVATE PEOPLE, BROADENING THE PARTY, RAISING MONEY, AND THE PERSON I REALLY THINK HAS THE BEST CHANCE OF BEATING GEORGE BUSH. AND THAT'S HOWARD DEAN AND THAT'S WHY I'M ENDORSING HIM. Yepsen: ALL RIGHT. ELABORATE ON THAT, SENATOR. WHY HOWARD DEAN? Harkin: WHY HOWARD DEAN? WELL, DAVID, I'VE BEEN WATCHING ALL THESE CAMPAIGNS. AND I GUESS THE FIRST THING IS ELECTABILITY. YOU KNOW, CAN HE REALLY -- WHO'S THE BEST AT BEATING GEORGE BUSH? AND I WATCHED -- A YEAR AGO HE WAS AT THE BOTTOM OF THE PACK. TODAY HE'S AT THE TOP OF IT. Yepsen: BUT YOU EVEN REFERRED TO HIM AS JOHN DEAN. Harkin: COME ON, DON'T TALK ABOUT THAT, DAVID. WE CAN FORGET ABOUT THE PAST. YEAH, HE WAS -- YOU, IT WAS "WHO IS JIMMY CARTER" TYPE OF THING. SO I WATCHED AND IN ONE YEAR HE WENT FROM THE BOTTOM TO THE TOP, NOT ONLY HERE IN IOWA BUT AROUND THE NATION. I MEAN THIS GUY IS LEADING AMONG DEMOCRATS IN SOUTH CAROLINA, FOR EXAMPLE. I DON'T THINK THERE'S ANY STATE WHERE HE'S NOT AHEAD. SO I WATCHED THAT. I LOOKED AT, SORT OF, HIS TOUGHNESS. REMEMBER AT ONE TIME CLINTON, WHEN HE BEAT ME? Yepsen: IN 1992. Harkin: AH, YES, I REMEMBER IT WELL, WHEN HE SAID "I CAN TAKE A PUNCH." WELL, I'M TELLING YOU HE COULD. HOWARD DEAN TAKES TEN PUNCHES A DAY, AND HE STILL KEEPS COMING BACK. AND THAT'S THE KIND OF RESILIENCE YOU NEED, I CAN TELL YOU, IN THIS KIND OF THING. THIRD, PAUL WELLSTONE AND I HAVE ALWAYS -- WE ALWAYS TALKED ABOUT HOW DEMOCRATS, IF WE JUST KEEP COMPETING WITH REPUBLICANS OVER A SHRINKING POOL OF VOTERS, WE LOSE. WE'VE GOT TO BROADEN OUR PARTY. WE'VE GOT TO GET NEW PEOPLE IN. REPUBLICANS -- NO, KARL ROVE KNOWS THAT IF WE CAN GET PEOPLE WHO HAVE BEEN OPTED OUT OF THE POLITICAL SYSTEM IN, THEY'RE BASICALLY OUR VOTERS. THAT'S WHAT HOWARD DEAN IS DOING AND DOING IT BETTER, DAVID, THAN ANYONE I HAVE SEEN IN MY ADULT LIFETIME. NOW, DON'T ASK ME TO EXPLAIN IT -- I'M NOT A POLITICAL THEORIST -- BUT HE'S DONE IT. HE'S BROADENING THE PARTY AND HE'S GOT WHAT I CALL A HUNDRED-DOLLAR REVOLUTION: ALL THESE PEOPLE WHO ARE GIVING HIM SMALL AMOUNTS OF MONEY ALL OVER THE UNITED STATES. SO I LOOKED AT ALL THAT. AND ONE OTHER THING... HE IS A GENUINE ARTICLE. HE'S GOT A LITTLE BIT OF THAT PAUL WELLSTONE IN HIM. WHAT YOU SEE IS WHAT YOU GET AND HE'S PLAINSPOKEN, STRAIGHTFORWARD. HE MAKES MISTAKES -- SAYS THINGS THAT ARE MISTAKES AT TIMES. BUT I THINK PEOPLE WOULD RATHER HAVE THAT THAN THE KIND OF WASHINGTON SPEAK THAT WE ALL GET ENGAGED IN HERE. SO, LOOK, FOR THOSE REASONS I REALLY DO BELIEVE HE'S OUR BEST SHOT TO BEAT GEORGE BUSH. Yepsen: WHAT DOES YOUR ENDORSEMENT MEAN OF -- MEAN FOR HOWARD DEAN? WHAT ARE YOU GOING TO DO FOR HIM NOW IN THE CLOSING DAYS OF THE CAMPAIGN? Harkin: WELL, WHAT I'M DOING IS I'M OBVIOUSLY CONTACTING ALL OF THE UNDECIDED DEMOCRATS THAT WE KNOW OF IN THE STATE OF IOWA TO LET THEM KNOW WHY I'M ENDORSING HOWARD DEAN. AND I'M ALSO CONTACTING MY ORGANIZATION AROUND THE STATE, THE PEOPLE THAT WERE MY PRECINCT CAPTAINS IN THE LAST ELECTION WHO ORGANIZED FOR ME ON THE LOCAL LEVEL WITH WHOM I KEEP CLOSE CONTACT ALL THE TIME. TO THE EXTENT THAT THEY ARE NOT COMMITTED TO ANOTHER CANDIDATE, I'M ASKING THEM IF THEY WOULD BE A PRECINCT CAPTAIN FOR HOWARD DEAN AND GO TO THE CAUCUS FOR HOWARD DEAN, AND I'M WRITING LETTERS AND MAKING PHONE CALLS. I'VE BEEN ON THE PHONE ALL DAY TODAY, AS A MATTER OF FACT, CALLING A LOT OF MY FRIENDS AROUND THE STATE BASICALLY TO TELL THEM WHY I'M SUPPORTING HOWARD DEAN. Yepsen: SENATOR, WHAT DOES IT MEAN THAT HOWARD DEAN SEEMS TO BE SHOWING WITH ALL THESE INCONSISTENCIES IN THINGS THAT HE SAID? HE SAID ONE THING BACK THEN AND SOMETHING ELSE NOW. ARE YOU TROUBLED BY ALL THAT? IS THERE A DANGER THAT HE'S GOING TO DISSEMBLE OUT THERE, BLOW HIMSELF UP ON THE CAMPAIGN TRAIL? Harkin: I DON'T THINK SO. I'VE WATCHED THIS GUY OPERATE FOR A LONG TIME. YOU KNOW, HE'S BEEN ELECTED FIVE TIMES GOVERNOR OF VERMONT IN A STATE THAT, IN SOME WAYS, HAS A LOT OF SIMILARITIES AS IOWA: SMALL TOWNS, BASICALLY A REPUBLICAN STATE, BUT HE GOT ELECTED AS GOVERNOR FIVE TIMES. A FISCAL CONSERVATIVE; HE DID A LOT OF GOOD THINGS FOR HEALTH CARE IN HIS STATE, EDUCATION, LABOR. SO, NO, I DON'T -- I MEAN, SURE, I THINK THE THING IS THAT A LOT OF TIMES HE'LL PROBABLY MAKE MISTAKES, BUT THAT MISTAKE COMES FROM, AGAIN, JUST SPEAKING PLAINLY, SPEAKING FORTHRIGHTLY. AND YOU KNOW, IT REMINDS ME OF ANOTHER POLITICIAN WHO USED TO SAY THINGS LIKE THAT AND MAKE MISTAKES, AND HIS NAME WAS RONALD REAGAN. HE USED TO SAY A LOT OF THINGS, BUT PEOPLE -- THEY GAVE HIM A LOT OF RUNNING ROOM BECAUSE HE WAS GENUINE. I MEAN THAT'S -- WHAT HE SAID, HE WAS SORT OF SPEAKING PLAINLY. THAT'S WHY I THINK HOWARD DEAN HAS GOT THAT KIND OF A CHARACTERISTIC ABOUT HIM, THAT AUTHENTICITY. Yepsen: ARE YOU WORRIED THAT HE MIGHT SHOOT HIMSELF IN THE FOOT, SO TO SPEAK? I MEAN WHENEVER REPORTERS ARE ASKING HIM QUESTIONS OUT THERE ON THE TRAIL, HE CAN GET SHARP AND ANGRY AND BRITTLE. YOU NEVER GET MAD AT US, DO YOU, SENATOR? Harkin: , NEVER, DAVID. OH, COME ON. [ LAUGHTER ] Yepsen: WELL, WHAT ABOUT THAT? I MEAN IS HE TOO BRITTLE OF A CANDIDATE? Harkin: NO, I DON'T THINK SO. AND AS I'VE WATCHED HIM OVER THE LAST SEVERAL MONTHS AND RECENTLY, AGAIN, THERE'S -- HE HAS A DEMEANOR THAT IS -- WHICH I THINK IS VERY GOOD. HE HAS A VERY STRAIGHTFORWARD DEMEANOR ABOUT HIM. AGAIN, I STILL THINK PEOPLE LIKE THAT. AND BY GOSH, IF YOU SPEAK YOUR MIND, ALL RIGHT, GO AHEAD AND DO IT. THAT'S WHY I CALLED HIM THE HARRY TRUMAN OF OUR TIMES. YOU KNOW, HARRY TRUMAN SOMETIMES COULD BE PRETTY TESTY TOO. Yepsen: MM-HMM. Harkin: IT KIND OF REMINDS ME OF A LITTLE HAROLD HUGHES TOO, FORMER GOVERNOR HUGHES. SENATOR HUGHES USED TO BE LIKE THAT WAY A LITTLE BIT TOO, BUT I THINK PEOPLE KIND OF LIKE THAT. Yepsen: SENATOR, WHY DID YOU FEEL YOU HAD TO ENDORSE ANYBODY AT ALL? I MEAN YOU WAITED HERE TILL THE END. GOVERNOR VILSACK DECIDED NOT TO ENDORSE ANYBODY. WHY DID YOU FEEL YOU HAD TO GET IN THIS SCRAP? Harkin: WELL, FIRST, I FELT THAT I WANTED TO BE AS NEUTRAL AS POSSIBLE AND LET EVERYONE HAVE THEIR CHANCE HERE IN IOWA AND BUILD THEIR ORGANIZATION AND SEE WHO KIND OF ROSE TO THE TOP. I MEAN A YEAR AGO, I WOULD HAVE PROBABLY SAID DEAN IS NOT GOING ANYWHERE, YOU KNOW. HE WAS AT THE BOTTOM OF THE PACK, AND IT MIGHT HAVE BEEN SOMEBODY ELSE. BUT THEN IT STARTED DRAWING UP CLOSER AND CLOSER. AND QUITE FRANKLY, I DID -- THERE'S A LOT OF, AS YOU KNOW, UNDECIDED DEMOCRATS OUT THERE. AND PEOPLE KEPT ASKING ME -- WHEN MY NEIGHBORS ARE ASKING ME WHO ARE WE FOR AND WHAT ARE YOU GOING TO DO AND WHEN I SAW THE STAKES OUT THERE OF WHAT GEORGE BUSH IS DOING TO THIS COUNTRY AND THE FACT THAT WE NEED TO REVITALIZE THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY, I JUST COULDN'T SIT ON THE SIDELINES ANY LONGER. I JUST -- I HAD TO MAKE MY DECISION, AND I DID IT. Yepsen: WHY DIDN'T YOU DO IT EARLIER WHEN YOU COULD HAVE BEEN OUT THERE CAMPAIGNING MORE? WHEN YOU ENDORSED AL GORE FOUR YEARS AGO, YOU DID IT MUCH EARLIER IN THE CYCLE. Harkin: WELL, I DID AL GORE WHEN HE WAS STILL -- BEFORE THE CAMPAIGN EVEN STARTED. I KNEW THAT WAS THE PERSON I WANTED TO SUPPORT AT THAT TIME. IN THIS CASE WE HAD A LOT OF GOOD CANDIDATES OUT THERE. I MEAN EVERY ONE OF THEM ARE VERY GOOD. GEPHARDT AND KERRY AND EDWARDS AND LIEBERMAN, THEY'RE ALL VERY GOOD CANDIDATES. AND I JUST FELT EARLIER I DIDN'T WANT TO PREJUDICE THE PROCESS. BUT AT THE END I FELT AN OBLIGATION, AT LEAST TO THE UNDECIDED DEMOCRATS THAT ARE OUT THERE AND MAYBE THOSE THAT AREN'T STRONGLY COMMITTED, TO LET THEM KNOW FROM MY VANTAGE POINT WHO IT IS THAT I THINK WOULD BE THE BEST STANDARD BEARER FOR US GOING UP AGAINST GEORGE BUSH. Yepsen: THE LATEST POLLS SHOW THAT 14 PERCENT OF THE LIKELY CAUCUS GOERS ARE UNDECIDED. Harkin: I THINK IT'S HIGHER THAN THAT, BY THE WAY, DAVID. Yepsen: "THE LOS ANGELES TIMES" - "CHICAGO TRIBUNE" POLL REPORTED SUNDAY THAT 40 PERCENT OF THE CAUCUS GOERS SAY THEY COULD BE PERSUADED TO CHANGE THEIR MINDS. IT STRIKES ME THAT YOUR ANGST THAT YOU WENT THROUGH IN SORTING THIS OUT AND WATCHING THIS CAMPAIGN IS AN AWFUL LOT LIKE A LOT OF IOWA DEMOCRATS. Harkin: I BELIEVE THAT. I MEAN I WENT THROUGH THE SAME THING. Yepsen: WHY? WHY THE ANGST? WHY THE LONG PERIOD OF TIME? WHY HAVE NONE OF THESE GUYS REALLY BROKEN THROUGH AND SOLD THEMSELVES TO YOU? WHY ARE YOU WAITING TILL THE END HERE? Harkin: WELL, I THINK, LIKE A LOT OF MY FELLOW IOWANS, WE REALLY WANT TO REPLACE GEORGE BUSH. WE FEEL VERY DEEPLY THAT THIS GUY IS RUINING OUR ECONOMY, HE'S GETTING US INVOLVED IN SITUATIONS OVERSEAS THAT ARE NOT TO THE BEST INTEREST OF THE UNITED STATES. WE'VE LOST ALL FRIENDSHIPS OF COUNTRIES AROUND THE WORLD. AND I THINK THERE'S THIS DEEP DESIRE TO GET GEORGE BUSH OUT OF THE WHITE HOUSE BECAUSE HE DIDN'T EVEN WIN THE PRESIDENCY. HE WON IT ONLY BECAUSE OF THE SUPREME COURT. AND SO THEREFORE WE WANT TO GET IT RIGHT. AND I THINK THERE'S JUST A LOT OF CONCERN ABOUT WE WANT TO MAKE SURE WE GET THE RIGHT PERSON TO CARRY OUR BANNER TO GO UP AGAINST GEORGE BUSH, AND I THINK THAT'S WHAT THE ANGST IS ALL ABOUT AND WHY THERE'S SO MANY UNDECIDED VOTERS. YOU'RE RIGHT, IT'S THE SAME THING I'VE GONE THROUGH. Yepsen: WHAT ARE THE PROSPECTS FOR DEMOCRATS BEATING BUSH? IF YOU LOOK AT THOSE POLLS RIGHT NOW, IT LOOKS PRETTY TOUGH. HE'S AT 60 PERCENT. DEAN IS AT 38 PERCENT. I MEAN THAT'S A BIGGER MARGIN THAN REAGAN BEAT MONDALE IN '84. YOU KNOW THAT THIS IS A GAME OF GETTING 270 ELECTORAL VOTES, SO HANDICAP THIS THING OUT. HOW DOES HOWARD DEAN GET FROM HERE TO 270? Harkin: WELL, FIRST OF ALL, I'D REMIND YOU THAT AT THIS TIME IN 1992 WHEN, QUITE FRANKLY, I HAD MORE ENDORSEMENTS AND MORE SUPPORT THAN BILL CLINTON DID, BILL CLINTON WAS 20 SOME POINTS BEHIND GEORGE BUSH. HE WAS IN THIRD PLACE. ACTUALLY A LITTLE BIT LATER THAN THAT, BUT HE WAS IN THIRD PLACE BEHIND ROSS PEROT, AND YET HE WENT ON TO WIN THE ELECTION. THINGS CHANGE AND I THINK YOU'RE GOING TO SEE MORE REVELATIONS LIKE JUST CAME OUT BY PAUL O'NEIL ABOUT WHAT BUSH HAS BEEN DOING IN THE WHITE HOUSE AND HOW HE'S BEEN MISLEADING THE AMERICAN PEOPLE WHICH, BY THE WAY, DAVID, I THINK IS GOING TO BE ONE OF THE -- I THINK THAT'S GOING TO BE ONE OF THE EMERGING BIG ISSUES IN THIS CAMPAIGN, JUST VORACITY, HONESTY, TRUTHFULNESS BY THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES. SO I THINK THAT IS ALL SHIFTING AROUND NOW. HOW DEAN GETS THERE IS HE WINS IOWA, HE WINS NEW HAMPSHIRE. THE BOW-WAVE EFFECT OF THAT -- AND THAT'S ANOTHER REASON I WANT TO SUPPORT DEAN BECAUSE I BELIEVE THAT HE WINS IOWA, HE WINS NEW HAMPSHIRE, IT'S BASICALLY KIND OF OVER WITH. AND THEN DEMOCRATS QUIT FIGHTING AMONG THEMSELVES AND TEARING EACH OTHER DOWN AND WE HAVE A CANDIDATE. AND THEREFORE -- AND THEN WE CAN DEVELOP OUR MESSAGE AND RAISE THE RESOURCES WE NEED TO GET OUR MESSAGE OUT IN MARCH, APRIL, MAY, JUNE, JULY. SO THAT'S A BIG HEAD OF STEAM FOR HOWARD DEAN AS OUR NOMINEE. THIRD, HE HAS TO LOOK AT THE DEMOGRAPHICS AND THE MAP -- THE ELECTORAL MAP OF THE LAST TIME. I MEAN AL GORE WON THE ELECTION. I MEAN IF HE HAD JUST WON ONE OTHER STATE, HE WOULD HAVE WON. SO YOU LOOK AT IT AND YOU GO TO THE NORTHEAST, YOU GO TO THE RUST BELT, THE UPPER MIDWEST, THE WEST COAST SLICE, AS WE CALL IT, -- THE WASHINGTON, OREGON, CALIFORNIA -- YOU PICK UP NEW MEXICO AND/OR ARIZONA, YOU'VE GOT THE ELECTORAL VOTES TO WIN. >> Yepsen: WELL, WHAT ABOUT THE ARGUMENT THAT DICK GEPHARDT MAKES THAT IN ORDER -- YOU'VE GOT TO CARRY SOMETHING IN THE RUST BELT AND THAT A CANDIDATE LIKE GEPHARDT WITH A LOT OF SUPPORT BY ORGANIZED LABOR AND A STRONG MESSAGE ON TRADE CAN GO INTO, SAY, OHIO, WHICH REPUBLICANS HISTORICALLY HAVE TO HAVE TO WIN THE WHITE HOUSE, I MEAN HOW DOES HOWARD DEAN CONNECT WITH SOME OF THESE -- CULTURALLY WITH SOME OF THESE PEOPLE IN THOSE STATES? Harkin: WELL, THERE'S A LOT OF LABOR SUPPORTING HOWARD DEAN. LABOR, AS YOU KNOW, DAVID, IS SPLIT ALL OVER THE PLACE, SO THERE ARE A LOT OF LABOR GROUPS WHO ARE SUPPORTING HOWARD DEAN. LET'S GET THAT STRAIGHT RIGHT NOW. AND I BELIEVE MORE WILL COME ON BOARD ONCE HE'S THE NOMINEE, AND THEY'LL BE SUPPORTIVE OF HIM. SECONDLY, BECAUSE OF HIS RECORD IN VERMONT, I BELIEVE HE'S GOING TO HAVE A GOOD RECORD TO TAKE INTO PLACES LIKE OHIO AND INDIANA, PENNSYLVANIA, PLACES LIKE THAT. AND DON'T FORGET, THE ONE THING THAT LABOR HOUSEHOLDS IN THOSE AREAS REALLY FEEL STRONGLY ABOUT IS WHAT? GUNS... AND THEIR RIGHT TO OWN GUNS AND THE RIGHT TO HUNT. YOU KNOW I'M A GUN OWNER. I'M A HUNTER AND I JUST THINK THAT THIS IS ONE ISSUE THEY'RE NOT GOING TO TAG HIM WITH LIKE THEY'VE TAGGED OTHER PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATES. Yepsen: BECAUSE DEAN HAS BEEN ENDORSED SEVERAL TIMES BY THE NRA -- Harkin: EXACTLY, THAT'S RIGHT. THAT'S RIGHT. Yepsen: WHAT KIND OF MOOD ARE DEMOCRATS IN? YOU KNOW, I'VE SEEN YOUR PARTY HAVE SOME DOOZIES OF FIGHTS, THE CARTER/KENNEDY THING IN '80, THAT LEFT THE PARTY DIVIDED. PEOPLE WERE ANGRY. THAT SAT ON THEIR HANDS. IS THAT GOING TO HAPPEN AGAIN NOW IN THIS RACE? Harkin: I DON'T SEE IT, DAVID, AND I DON'T SEE IT IN IOWA EITHER. EVEN THOSE WHO ARE WITH KERRY OR WITH GEPHARDT OR EDWARDS OR DEAN, WHEN I TALK TO THEM -- AND SOME OF MY CLOSE FRIENDS ARE WITH OTHER CANDIDATES OTHER THAN HOWARD DEAN -- IT'S NOT SOMETHING WHERE IT'S SO VISCERAL THAT IT'S THEIR CANDIDATE OR NO ONE. THEY BELIEVE THEIR CANDIDATE IS THE BEST. THEY'LL GO TO THE CAUCUS FOR THAT CANDIDATE BUT, HEY, IF IT'S SOMEONE ELSE, THEY'LL BE ON BOARD. SO I DON'T SEE THAT KIND OF VISCERAL KIND OF THING THAT I MAYBE HAVE SEEN IN SOME CAMPAIGNS IN THE PAST. Yepsen: THE ANGER AT BUSH IS GOING TO HEAL A LOT OF WOUNDS PRETTY QUICKLY. Harkin: YOU PUT IT BETTER THAN I DID. I THINK THAT'S IT, YES. Yepsen: SENATOR, YOU ARE THE ONLY LIVING IOWAN WHO HAS RUN FOR PRESIDENT. YOU'VE BEEN THERE. NOW, WE'RE ALL WATCHING THIS CAMPAIGN AND THESE CANDIDATES RUNNING AROUND THE STATE. WHAT ARE THEY GOING THROUGH RIGHT NOW? WHAT'S IT LIKE TO RUN FOR PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES. Harkin: IT'S HARD TO GO TO SLEEP AT NIGHT. YOU'RE THINKING ABOUT ALL THE THINGS YOU HAVE TO DO, THAT LAST HAND YOU'VE GOT TO SHAKE, THAT LAST PHONE CALL YOU'VE GOT TO MAKE, THAT LAST STOP ON THE BUS TOUR, AND THE ADRENALINE IS PUMPING, BECAUSE IT'S -- WELL, IT'S LIKE THAT FINAL FOOTBALL GAME. IT'S LIKE THAT FINAL BASKETBALL GAME. AT THE END OF ONE DAY, YOU'RE EITHER IN OR YOU'RE OUT. THERE'S REALLY NO SECOND PLACE. AND IT REALLY IS -- AND YOU SEE ALL THESE PEOPLE OUT THERE THAT ARE SUPPORTING YOU, THAT LOVE YOU, THAT HAVE TRAVELED ACROSS THE COUNTRY FOR YOU. ONE OF THE SADDEST PARTS OF WHAT HAPPENED TO ME IN NEW HAMPSHIRE WAS TO SEE ALL THOSE PEOPLE WHO HAD COME FROM IOWA AND OTHER STATES. THEY TRUDGED THROUGH THE SNOW OF NEW HAMPSHIRE. AND TO COME OUT AND TELL THEM YOU DIDN'T MAKE IT, IT'S A TOUGH THING TO DO BECAUSE YOU'VE GOT ALL THOSE PEOPLE AND YOU DON'T WANT TO LET THEM DOWN. THEY PUT THEIR FAITH IN YOU. THAT PROBABLY IS ONE OF THE THINGS THAT REALLY KEEPS YOU GOING. YOU SEE ALL THOSE WONDERFUL PEOPLE OUT THERE. IT'S AN EXPERIENCE LIKE NOTHING I'VE EVER HAD BEFORE. AND BELIEVE ME, I'LL NEVER HAVE IT AGAIN, OKAY. I DON'T WANT TO AMUSE YOU OF ANY THOUGHTS ON THAT, DAVID. BUT I HAVE NEVER REGRETTED MY RUN FOR PRESIDENT. Yepsen: WHY? Harkin: WELL, I MADE A LOT OF FRIENDS. I THINK I GOT TESTED. I FELT I DID PRETTY WELL. I DID CARRY THREE STATES, AFTER ALL. BUT I REALIZED THAT AT THE END OF IT ALL, THAT'S NOT FOR ME. Yepsen: WHY DIDN'T IT COME TOGETHER -- Harkin: THAT'S NOT FOR ME. Yepsen: WHY DIDN'T IT COME TOGETHER FOR YOU IN '92? IS THERE SOMETHING -- AS YOU LOOK BACK OVER THAT CAMPAIGN, WHAT DID YOU DO WRONG? WHAT DIDN'T CLICK RIGHT? Harkin: OH, I DON'T MEAN TO -- I'VE ALWAYS RESISTED THE WHOLE MONDAY MORNING QUARTERBACK IN MY RACE. I MADE SOME MISTAKES. AND QUITE FRANKLY, IN NEW HAMPSHIRE, IF YOU REALLY WANT TO KNOW THE TRUTH, I HAD A CAMPAIGN STRUCTURE, AND WHAT I DIDN'T DO WAS I DIDN'T TEST IT. AND I'VE DONE IT IN EVERY CAMPAIGN I'VE RUN IN IOWA BEFORE AND SINCE, BUT I DON'T KNOW WHY I DIDN'T THERE. IN OTHER WORDS, I WAS GETTING ALL THIS INFORMATION ABOUT EVERYBODY WHO WAS FOR ME AND THE STRUCTURE. I SHOULD HAVE BROUGHT SOMEONE IN FROM THE OUTSIDE TO TEST IT: AM I BEING TOLD THE FACTS OF WHAT'S ON THE GROUND THERE? IF I HAD DONE THAT, I PROBABLY WOULD HAVE RECOGNIZED THAT I WASN'T IN AS GOOD OF SHAPE AS I THOUGHT I WAS IN NEW HAMPSHIRE. Yepsen: WHAT DID YOU LEARN BY THAT EXPERIENCE? I MEAN I FOLLOWED YOU ALL OVER THE COUNTRY -- Harkin: YEAH, YOU SURE DID. Yepsen: WHAT DID YOU LEARN BY THAT? Harkin: WELL, I LEARNED -- I KNOW IT SOUNDS KIND OF TRITE PERHAPS, BUT THIS REALLY IS A BIG COUNTRY WITH A LOT OF DIFFERENT PEOPLE AND A LOT OF DIFFERENT FEELINGS AND A LOT OF DIFFERENT ATTITUDES ALL OVER THIS COUNTRY. TO TRY TO MELD THOSE TOGETHER TAKES QUITE A WORK OF ART ALMOST, ON A POLITICIAN'S PART, TO TRY TO MELD THOSE TOGETHER. THAT'S WHAT I LEARNED MORE THAN ANYTHING. AND THE OTHER THING I LEARNED -- AND AGAIN, THIS MAY JUST SOUND LIKE POLITICAL WHATEVER, BUT I REALLY DO BELIEVE THIS. PEOPLE ARE GENUINELY GOOD. THEY REALLY ARE. I MEAN WHEN I WENT OUT THERE AND I CAMPAIGNED AMONG PEOPLE, THEY'RE JUST GENUINELY GOOD PEOPLE, EVEN THE PEOPLE THAT WEREN'T FOR ME. I DON'T FEEL THAT ANYONE REALLY DISLIKED ME. THEY JUST LIKED SOMEBODY BETTER THAN ME, THAT'S ALL. BUT THEY WERE GENERALLY REALLY GOOD PEOPLE. AND IF NOTHING ELSE, I JUST -- I CAME OUT OF THAT CAMPAIGN FEELING, YOU KNOW, WHATEVER WE CAN DO TO GET MORE PEOPLE ACTIVATED IN POLITICS AND TO GET THEM TO SENSE THIS AND TO FEEL IT LIKE THOSE THAT ARE ACTIVE DO, THAT'S WHAT WE'VE GOT TO TRY TO DO. MAYBE THAT'S WHY I'M SO MUCH FOR DEAN. I SEE HIM REACHING OUT AND BRINGING PEOPLE IN THAT HAVEN'T BEEN ACTIVE IN THE PAST, AND TO ME THAT'S GOOD. Yepsen: I THOUGHT MAYBE YOU WERE GOING TO TELL ME YOU NEVER DO A WORKDAY ON A LOBSTER BOAT. Harkin: OH, YOU REMEMBER THAT STORY. Yepsen: EVERYBODY GOT A LITTLE SICK WITH YOU OUT THERE OFF THE COAST OF NEW HAMPSHIRE. Harkin: I WAS DOING MY WORK, DAVID -- WELL, THERE WERE TWO WORK DAYS, BUT THAT WAS ONE. I WENT OUT ON THIS LOBSTER BOAT, COLDER THAN -- OH, GOD, IT WAS COLD OUT THERE, MAN! AND WE COME IN AT THE END OF THE DAY AND THIS ONE -- THEY TOOK ONE POOL REPORTER AND PUT HER ON THE BOAT, AND SHE GOT SO SICK. I FELT SO SORRY FOR HER. AND THEN THE OTHER REPORTERS -- WE COME IN AT THE END OF THE DAY, AND THIS BOAT CAPTAIN I'M WITH, I HELP HIM UNLOAD HIS LOBSTERS, PICKING UP THESE NETS, AND I'M FREEZING COLD. WE COME BACK IN AND THEY ASK ME HOW IT WENT. YOU KNOW, THE CAMERA IS IN YOUR FACE AND I SORT OF STOOD ABOUT. THEN THEY WENT TO THE BOAT CAPTAIN. AND TO THE BOAT CAPTAIN THEY SAID, "WELL, HOW DID HE DO?" "WELL, YEAH. HE WAS A GOOD WORKER. YEAH, HE HELPED ME HAUL UP THE LOBSTERS." THEY SAID, "WELL, DOES THIS MEAN, JOE, THAT YOU'RE GOING TO BE VOTING FOR HARKIN?" "NO, I'M A REPUBLICAN. I'M NOT VOTING FOR HARKIN." [ LAUGHTER ] Yepsen: WELL, SENATOR, LET'S TALK A LITTLE PURE POLITICS HERE AT THE VERY END OF THIS CAMPAIGN FOR THE CAUCUSES. LET'S GET YOUR HANDICAP OF THE RACE. WHO'S GOT THE BEST ORGANIZATION? Harkin: WELL, COME ON, DAVID, I'M SUPPORTING HOWARD DEAN, SO I WOULD -- I REALLY -- AND I DO BELIEVE THAT. HE DOES HAVE THE BEST ORGANIZATION. I'VE LOOKED AT IT MORE CLOSELY, OBVIOUSLY, SINCE I'VE COME ON BOARD. I'VE BEEN WITH IT THIS WEEKEND AND LOOKING AT IT. HE HAS AN AWESOME ORGANIZATION STRUCTURE WITH PEOPLE IN THE STATE OF IOWA AND AROUND THE COUNTRY. Yepsen: OTHER DEMOCRATS, SENATOR, ARE SAYING THAT THEY THINK DICK GEPHARDT HAS A BETTER ORGANIZATION BECAUSE HE'S GOT THE INFRASTRUCTURE OF ORGANIZED LABOR WORKING FOR HIS CAMPAIGN. Harkin: I DON'T AGREE WITH THAT. HE DOES HAVE ORGANIZED LABOR, BUT DEAN HAS AFSCME. AND WHEN YOU LOOK AT LABOR THAT GOES TO THE CAUCUSES, YOU KNOW YOURSELF AFSCME TURNS OUT AND SO DOES SEIU AND THE TEACHERS. THEY HAVEN'T ENDORSED ANYONE. BUT AFSCME IS WORKING VERY HARD ALL OVER THE STATE OF IOWA, AND THEY'RE BROADLY BASED AROUND THE STATE. WHEREAS, SOME OF THE OTHER UNIONS ARE SORT OF POCKETED HERE AND THERE. SO GEPHARDT HAS GOT A GOOD ORGANIZATION; DON'T GET ME WRONG. BUT I DON'T THINK IT'S AS BROAD AS HOWARD DEAN'S. Yepsen: JOHN KERRY, HOW DOES HIS OPERATION LOOK TO YOU? Harkin: KERRY HAS A GOOD OPERATION AND HE HAS BEEN VERY SUCCESSFUL IN GETTING A LOT OF STATE LEGISLATORS ON BOARD. I UNDERSTAND TODAY CHRISTIE VILSACK -- Yepsen: YES, THAT'S CORRECT. Harkin: I DIDN'T READ THAT BUT I UNDERSTAND SHE ENDORSED KERRY. SO HE'S GOT A LOT OF PARTY REGULARS AROUND THE STATE ON HIS SIDE. I THINK HE'S DONE VERY WELL IN THE STATE OF IOWA. SO I THINK -- I DON'T THINK HIS ORGANIZATION ON THE FIELD, ON THE GROUND, IS AS GOOD AS EITHER GEPHARDT'S OR DEAN'S, BUT HE CERTAINLY HAS PICKED OFF A LOT WELL-KNOWN DEMOCRATS TO SUPPORT HIM. Yepsen: WHAT HAPPENED TO JOHN KERRY, SENATOR? I MEAN A YEAR AGO AT THIS TIME, HE WAS RIGHT AT THE TOP OF THE POLLS, ALL THE PEOPLE IN WASHINGTON. WHAT HAPPENED? Harkin: WELL, I'M CERTAIN PEOPLE LIKE YOU WILL BE ANALYZING THAT LATER ON. I DON'T KNOW. BUT IT'S JUST LIKE HIS CAMPAIGN JUST -- WELL, HE HAD SOME TROUBLE WITH -- YOU KNOW, HE HAD TO FIRE HIS CAMPAIGN MANAGER. THEN THERE WAS A SHAKEUP IN THE CAMPAIGN, AND IT NEVER QUITE SEEMED TO GEL AFTER THAT. THERE NEVER SEEMED TO BE A COHESIVENESS THAT I WOULD HAVE LIKED TO HAVE SEEN IN AN ORGANIZATION. SOMETIMES THAT CAN REALLY COST YOU. Yepsen: JOHN EDWARDS? Harkin: GOOD GUY. I LIKE HIM A LOT. AS YOU KNOW, WHEN I ENDORSED HOWARD DEAN ON FRIDAY, I SAID THAT I HOPE THAT IN THE CLOSING DAYS OF THIS CAMPAIGN HERE IN THIS STATE AND OTHER STATES THAT WE DEMOCRATS WOULD REFRAIN FROM TRYING TO TEAR EACH OTHER DOWN. AND I SAID WE COULD ALL TAKE A LESSON FROM JOHN EDWARDS IN THIS. HE'S RUN A VERY POSITIVE, UPLIFTING CAMPAIGN. I THINK WE'RE GOING TO HEAR MORE FROM HIM IN THE FUTURE, BY THE WAY. Yepsen: THE LATEST POLLS SHOW THAT BOTH KERRY AND EDWARDS SEEM TO BE MOVING UP, WITH DEAN AND GEPHARDT FAIRLY STATIC IN SORT OF A STATISTICAL TIE. NOW, WHY DO YOU THINK THAT UNDECIDED -- A LOT OF THESE UNDECIDED DEMOCRATS ARE MOVING TOWARD KERRY AND EDWARDS HERE IN THE CLOSING DAYS? IS THERE ANY EXPLANATION YOU HAVE FOR THAT? Harkin: NO, EXCEPT THAT I THINK EDWARDS HAS DONE HIMSELF VERY WELL. HE DID VERY WELL IN THAT LAST -- IN THE DEBATE BEFORE THE ONE SUNDAY NIGHT, AND HE'S REALLY BEEN CAMPAIGNING HARD. HE'S A GOOD CAMPAIGNER, A VERY SMART GUY. AND HE'S GOT A LOT OF SUPPORT IN THIS STATE. AND I THINK KERRY HAS ALSO BEEN MOVING, BUT NOW IT LOOKS TO ME LIKE IT'S KIND OF ALMOST BETWEEN EDWARDS AND KERRY NOW, WHAT'S GOING TO HAPPEN THERE. I WOULD SAY THIS, THOUGH, ABOUT -- YOU SAID THAT DEAN AND GEPHARDT WERE KIND OF STATIC. WE'VE BEEN DOING TRACKING POLLS AND I'VE BEEN FOLLOWING THE TRACKING. AND I CAN TELL YOU THAT WHEN WE ID PEOPLE WHO ARE UNDECIDED AND WE'D CALL THEM BACK -- PEOPLE WHO WERE UNDECIDED BEFORE AND WE'VE TRACKED THEM NOW, AND THE BULK OF THEM ARE GOING TO HOWARD DEAN. NOW, THAT'S NOT TO SAY OTHERS AREN'T GOING TO OTHER CANDIDATES. THEY ARE. BUT YOU COULD SEE THAT BECAUSE OF DEAN'S SUPPORT, EVEN THOUGH HE MIGHT GET THE MOST NUMBERS OF PEOPLE MOVING TO HIM, IF, LET'S SAY, AN EDWARDS, WHO WAS WAY DOWN THERE, GOT SOME OF THOSE NUMBERS, PERCENTAGE-WISE IT WOULD HELP HIM MORE BECAUSE HE WAS DOWN. PERCENTAGE-WISE IT WILL GIVE HIM A BIGGER BOOST. Yepsen: IS IT CONCEIVABLE TO YOU THAT -- I MEAN YOU OBVIOUSLY THINK DEAN WILL WIN. IS IT CONCEIVABLE TO YOU THAT EDWARDS OR KERRY COULD BEAT DICK GEPHARDT FOR SECOND PLACE? Harkin: BOY, I DON'T KNOW, DAVID. I JUST DON'T KNOW THE ANSWER TO THAT QUESTION. I THINK THERE IS SOME BUNCHING IN THERE. WELL, LISTEN, YOU KNOW THIS AS WELL AS I DO. ANYTHING THAT HAPPENED IN THOSE CAUCUSES -- AND IT'S VERY HARD, AS YOU KNOW, TO POLL FOR CAUCUS ATTENDERS. Yepsen: THAT'S CORRECT. Harkin: IT'S VERY DIFFICULT AND SO YOU COULD GET SOME BIG SURPRISES COMING OUT OF HERE NEXT MONDAY. Yepsen: WELL, WHAT ABOUT THIS STORY WE'RE HEARING THAT THE DEAN CAMPAIGN HAS SET UP THIS ELABORATE COMMUNICATIONS INFRASTRUCTURE SO THAT ON CAUCUS NIGHT THEY CAN TELL WHEN THEY'VE WON AND THEN CAN SHIFT PEOPLE OVER TO HELP JOHN KERRY TAKE SECOND PLACE, THE IDEA BEING THAT THAT WOULD REALLY ENERGIZE KERRY AGAINST GENERAL CLARK IN NEW HAMPSHIRE. IS THERE ANYTHING TO THIS? Harkin: I'VE LOOKED AT THAT SINCE I'VE COME ON BOARD THE CAMPAIGN, AND THERE'S JUST NOT -- I CAN'T FIND IT ANYWHERE. NO ONE IS PLANNING FOR THAT. I'VE NOT SEEN IT. LOOK, THERE ARE WHAT, 1,993 PRECINCTS? Yepsen: THAT'S CORRECT. Harkin: THERE'S NO WAY YOU CAN -- Yepsen: I MEAN I UNDERSTAND IT'S -- Harkin: YOU CAN'T DO THAT. Yepsen: -- A VERY TOUGH MANEUVER TO PULL OFF. Harkin: YOU CAN'T DO THAT KIND OF MANEUVER. IT'S LIKE SOME PEOPLE SAID, OH, THEY WERE ACCUSING HOWARD DEAN; THEY WERE GOING TO BRING 3,500 PEOPLE IN AND PACK THE CAUCUSES FROM OUT OF STATE. YOU KNOW, 1,993 -- THERE'S NO WAY YOU CAN DO THAT. Yepsen: SENATOR, WITH ALL THESE MEDIA PEOPLE IN OUR STATE RIGHT NOW, AS THERESA VILMAIN ONCE SAID, THE BELTWAY HAS MOVED TO DES MOINES, AND YOU COULD HEAR ABOUT ANYTHING ON THE STREETS OF THIS TOWN. Harkin: THAT'S TRUE. Yepsen: GO BACK IN THE CLOSING MINUTE OR TWO THAT WE HAVE AND TALK ABOUT THE MESSAGE THAT DEMOCRATS OUGHT TO PRESENT TO VOTERS IN NOVEMBER. HILARY CLINTON WAS HERE, TALKED AT THE J-J DINNER -- YOU WERE THERE -- AND SAID THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY HAS TO OFFER A POSITIVE MESSAGE, THAT YOU JUST CAN'T BE OUT THERE BASHING BUSH AND EACH OTHER. Harkin: THAT'S RIGHT. Yepsen: WHAT SHOULD THAT MESSAGE BE? Harkin: I THINK -- AND THIS MAY EVOLVE, AS I SAID EARLIER, HAVING A PRESIDENT THAT LEVELS WITH THE AMERICAN PEOPLE. I HEARD HOWARD DEAN THE OTHER EVENING, HE SAID, "YOU KNOW, I JUST WANT YOU TO KNOW AS PRESIDENT THERE MAY BE TIMES WHEN WE WOULD HAVE TO TAKE OUR MILITARY OVERSEAS TO PROTECT THE INTERESTS OF THE UNITED STATES. BUT BEFORE WE DO THAT, THE PRESIDENT OUGHT TO TELL THE TRUTH TO THE AMERICAN PEOPLE." SO I THINK THAT MAY EVOLVE AS A BIG FACTOR IN THIS ELECTION. SECONDLY, I BELIEVE JOBS AND THE ECONOMY -- AS PAUL KRUEGMAN SAID, "WE HAVE A NEIMAN MARCUS ECONOMY RIGHT NOW." NEIMAN MARCUS DID WELL OVER CHRISTMAS. WAL-MART DIDN'T BECAUSE PEOPLE ON THE BOTTOM AREN'T GETTING IT. AND SO WE HAD THIS KIND OF JOBLESS KIND OF RECOVERY, AND SO I THINK THAT'S GOING TO BE AN ISSUE. AND THE BIG ONE, HEALTH CARE. HEALTH CARE. AND THAT'S WHERE HOWARD DEAN AND WHAT HE'S DONE IN VERMONT IN COVERING ALL THE KIDS KNOWS WHAT NEEDS TO BE DONE TO GET HEALTH CARE TO OUR PEOPLE. Yepsen: SENATOR, WE'RE OUT TIME. THANKS A LOT FOR BEING WITH US TODAY. APPRECIATE THAT. Harkin: THANKS, DAVID. APPRECIATE IT VERY MUCH. Yepsen: NOW, TOMORROW EVENING WE'RE BACK OUT ON THE CAMPAIGN TRAIL AND WE DISCUSS THE CAMPAIGN OF 2004 AND THE UPCOMING IOWA CAUCUSES WITH SENATOR JOHN EDWARDS OF NORTH CAROLINA, A CANDIDATE FOR THAT DEMOCRATIC NOMINATION. POLICY AND POLITICS WITH SENATOR EDWARDS LIVE AT 6:30 P.M. TOMORROW. I HOPE YOU'LL BE JOINING US AT THAT TIME. I'M DAVID YEPSEN OF "THE DES MOINES REGISTER." THANKS FOR BEING WITH US HERE ON STATEWIDE IOWA PUBLIC TELEVISION. CAPTIONS BY: MIDWEST CAPTIONING DES MOINES, IOWA. FUNDING FOR THIS PROGRAM WAS PROVIDED BY "FRIENDS," THE IOWA PUBLIC TELEVISION FOUNDATION... GENERATIONS OF FAMILIES AND FRIENDS WHO FEEL PASSIONATE ABOUT THE PROGRAMS THEY WATCH ON IOWA PUBLIC TELEVISION. |
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