Iowa Public Television

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THIS IS THE SUNDAY, MAY 27 EDITION OF "IOWA PRESS." HERE IS DAVID YEPSEN.

YEPSEN: READING SKILLS AND CLASS-SIZE INITIATIVES, ALTERNATIVE TEACHER LICENSING, AND THE MUCH PUBLICIZED TEACHER PAY RAISE.

ALL ARE IN THE STATEHOUSE NEWS OF THIS PAST WEEK AS GOVERNOR TOM VILSACK WENT TO WORK ON THE PROPOSED 2002 BUDGET FORWARDED TO HIM BY THE IOWA GENERAL ASSEMBLY EARLIER THIS MONTH. GOVERNOR VILSACK USED HIS VETO PEN TO BLOCK A PROPOSAL FROM THE REPUBLICAN-CONTROLLED GENERAL ASSEMBLY TO CREATE A FASTER WAY TO LICENSE TEACHERS. THE GOVERNOR ALSO RESTORED FUNDING TO PROGRAMS FOCUSING ON CLASS-SIZE REDUCTION AND IMPROVING EARLY READING SKILLS IN THE EARLY GRADES. AND WITH THE STROKE OF THE PEN, THE GOVERNOR BEGAN A PERFORMANCE-BASED SYSTEM TO INCREASE TEACHER SALARIES, WITH A $40-MILLION DOWN PAYMENT AS A FIRST STEP. WELL, ALL WERE PROMINENT ISSUES IN THE HIGHLY PARTISAN LEGISLATIVE SESSION OF 2001, AND IT'S A CERTAINTY THAT WE HAVEN'T HEARD THE LAST OF THE PROS AND CONS. OUR GUEST THIS SUNDAY ON "IOWA PRESS" HAS BEEN FOLLOWING THOSE ISSUES, AND OTHERS, THROUGH THE LEGISLATIVE SESSION. TED STILWILL, DIRECTOR OF THE IOWA DEPARTMENT OF EDUCATION SINCE 1995, HAS SERVED AS DIRECTOR UNDER BOTH REPUBLICAN GOVERNOR TERRY BRANSTAD AND DEMOCRATIC GOVERNOR TOM VILSACK. MR. STILWILL, WELCOME BACK TO "IOWA PRESS."

STILWILL: GREAT TO BE HERE.

YEPSEN: GOOD TO HAVE YOU HERE. ALSO WITH US AT THE "IOWA PRESS" TABLE ARE IOWA STATEHOUSE REPORTERS JENEANE BECK OF KUNI PUBLIC RADIO AND MIKE GLOVER OF THE ASSOCIATED PRESS.

GLOVER: DIRECTOR STILWILL, BOTH SIDES IN THIS DISPUTE SAY THAT THE SIGNATURE PIECE OF LEGISLATION TO EMERGE FROM THIS YEAR'S LEGISLATURE WAS THE TEACHER PAY INCREASE. WHAT CAN PARENTS AND CHILDREN EXPECT TO SEE AS A RESULT OF THAT TEACHER PAY PLAN?

STILWILL: WELL, I THINK IT'S GOING TO TAKE A WHILE. BUT I THINK IN THE LONG-RUN WE'LL SEE, FIRST OF ALL, THE ABILITY TO RECRUIT AND TO KEEP GOOD TEACHERS IN IOWA. IT'S CRITICAL THAT WE MAINTAIN THAT ABILITY. IT'S PROBABLY THE MOST CRITICAL ELEMENT IN THE EDUCATION SYSTEM, NEXT TO THE PARENTS THEMSELVES. AND I THINK EVEN IN THE LONGER TERM, WE'LL SEE AN EDUCATIONAL SYSTEM THAT LITERALLY BEGINS TO LOOK AT TEACHING IN A DIFFERENT WAY AND SUPPORT TEACHING IN A MUCH MORE POSITIVE WAY WITH MUCH STRONGER, MORE POWERFUL PROFESSIONAL DEVELOPMENT FOR TEACHERS, WHICH IS VERY MUCH NEEDED TODAY. TEACHING IS A MORE COMPLEX JOB. EDUCATION IS MORE COMPLEX WORK THAN IT USED TO BE, PARTICULARLY IN IOWA, AS WELL AS IN OTHER STATES. SO WITH A LITTLE PATIENCE IN THE LONG-TERM, I THINK WE'LL SEE A STRONGER EDUCATIONAL SYSTEM BY VIRTUE OF THIS LEGISLATION.

GLOVER: A LOT OF PEOPLE SAY THIS IS A LONG-TERM PROPOSAL. GIVE US SOME STANDARDS BY WHICH, AS THE YEARS GO BY, WE CAN MEASURE THIS PROGRAM TO SEE IF IT'S SUCCEEDING. CAN YOU GIVE US TEST SCORES? CAN YOU GIVE US INCOME LEVELS? CAN YOU GIVE US SOME WAY OF MEASURING THE SUCCESS OF THIS PROGRAM?

STILWILL: ONE OF THE FIRST THINGS WE'LL LOOK FOR AND WE'LL MONITOR PRETTY CLOSELY IS IF WE'RE ABLE TO FILL SHORTAGE AREA KINDS OF POSITIONS. THERE'S NOT SPECIFIC STEPS IN THIS LEGISLATION TO DEAL DIRECTLY WITH SHORTAGE AREAS, BUT BY ENHANCING TEACHER SALARIES GENERALLY, THAT WILL HELP, AND THAT WILL BEGIN IN THE VERY FIRST YEAR. SO WE'LL LOOK, AS AN INDICATOR, FOR EXAMPLE, TO SEE THAT WE HAVE TEACHERS TEACHING AT A HIGH SCHOOL LEVEL, FOR EXAMPLE, THAT HAVE A MAJOR OR A MINOR IN THEIR AREA OF TEACHING, THEIR AREA OF RESPONSIBILITY. WE'LL HEAR FROM DISTRICTS THAT THEY'RE ABLE TO RECRUIT THE TEACHERS THEY NEED TO FILL THE POSITIONS THEY HAVE. I THINK IN THE LONG-TERM, WE'LL ALSO HEAR FROM TEACHERS THAT THEY'RE GETTING THE SKILL DEVELOPMENT THEY NEED TO FEEL MORE COMFORTABLE MEETING THE EDUCATIONAL CHALLENGES OF KIDS. AND I THINK IN THE LONG-TERM WE'LL SEE STUDENT PERFORMANCE CHANGE AS A RESULT.

BECK: I WAS GOING TO MENTION STUDENT PERFORMANCE BECAUSE THAT'S A REASON MANY REPUBLICANS CAME ON BOARD WITH THIS PLAN. WHAT ARE THE MEASUREMENTS FOR THAT?

STILWILL: WELL, THE MEASUREMENTS FOR STUDENT PERFORMANCE ARE ALREADY IN PLACE. THE STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION AND THE LEGISLATURE HAVE INDICATORS AT FOURTH, EIGHTH, ELEVENTH GRADE IN READING AND MATH AND SCIENCE. EVERY SCHOOL DISTRICT IN IOWA IS REPORTING ON THE SAME STANDARD IN TERMS OF THE PERCENTAGE OF KIDS THAT READ AT A PROFICIENT LEVEL. WE LOOK AT SUB-GROUP PERFORMANCE IN TERMS OF MINORITIES, KIDS OF DIFFERENT SOCIOECONOMIC STATUS. SO THAT INDICATOR SYSTEM, THE DASHBOARD, IF YOU WILL, TO SEE HOW THE SYSTEM IS PERFORMING, IS IN PLACE.

BECK: IS THERE A NATIONAL AVERAGE OF TEACHING SALARIES THAT WE'RE TRYING TO REACH? IS THAT THE GOAL? IS IT A LITTLE LOWER THAN THAT SINCE THE REST OF THE STATE MAKES A LITTLE LESS THAN THE NATIONAL AVERAGE, AND WHAT'S THE PRICE OF THAT?

STILWILL: WELL, I THINK FOR A LONG TIME THERE'S BEEN A DISCUSSION ABOUT WHERE IOWA SITS WITH REGARD TO THE NATIONAL AVERAGE. WHILE IT'S USEFUL TO KEEP TRACK OF THAT AS AN INDICATOR, WHAT YOU'RE REALLY TRYING TO DO IS MAKE SURE THAT YOU HAVE THE BEST TEACHERS THAT YOU CAN AND YOU GET THE TEACHERS THAT YOU NEED. LIKE ANY BUSINESS, YOU RECRUIT PEOPLE TO WORK THERE IN PART BECAUSE OF THE SALARY. TEACHING IS A PRETTY MISSION-DRIVEN PROFESSION. AND IF TEACHERS WILL COME TO WORK IN IOWA FOR MAYBE THE SAME OR EVEN A LITTLE LESS THAN THEY MIGHT GET SOMEWHERE ELSE, IF THE TEACHING ENVIRONMENT IS MORE SUPPORTIVE, IF THEY CAN BE MORE EFFECTIVE -- THAT'S WHY PEOPLE TEACH; THEY WANT TO HELP KIDS LEARN. IF YOU CAN DO THAT BETTER IN IOWA THAN ANYWHERE ELSE, PEOPLE WHO WANT TO TEACH WILL COME HERE.

YEPSEN: WELL, WHAT ABOUT JENEANE'S SECOND QUESTION ON WHAT'S THE PRICE TAG FOR ALL OF THIS?

STILWILL: WELL, WHEN WE LOOKED AT THE MARKET STUDIES, IF YOU WILL, FOR WHAT IT WAS GOING TO TAKE FOR IOWA TO REALLY BE IN THE MARKET -- IN SOME OF THE WORK WE DID, WE PEGGED BEING AT THE 40^TH PERCENTILE, NOT THE 50^TH PERCENTILE AT THE NATIONAL AVERAGE, AT LEAST ON THE BASE SALARIES AND THEN LOOKING AT INCREASING THAT WITH OTHER MECHANISMS AS WELL. IN THOSE ESTIMATES WE LOOKED AT -- WE WERE COMING IN AROUND $250 MILLION TO $350 MILLION AT TODAY'S COSTS, AND THAT OBVIOUSLY IS A MOVING TARGET AS THE REST OF THE NATION INCREASES TEACHER SALARIES AS WELL.

GLOVER: DO YOU HAVE A CHALLENGE AHEAD OF YOU? YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT TEACHER PERFORMANCE, TEACHERS DOING ALL THIS KIND OF STUFF. THE UNION REPRESENTING THE STATE'S TEACHERS ASKED GOVERNOR VILSACK TO VETO THIS TEACHER PAY INCREASE. THEY'RE NOT SUPPORTIVE OF IT. HOW BIG OF A CHALLENGE DO YOU HAVE GETTING TEACHERS ON BOARD, GETTING THEM TO BE A PART OF THIS PROCESS?

STILWILL: THERE'S NO QUESTION THAT WE HAVE A SIGNIFICANT CHALLENGE. THE WHOLE PROCESS THAT DELIVERED THESE SET OF RECOMMENDATIONS, EVEN TO THE LEGISLATURE AND IN THE LEGISLATIVE PROCESS ITSELF, WAS NOT NECESSARILY A TERRIBLY INCLUSIVE PROCESS WHERE THERE WERE LOTS OF TEACHERS INVOLVED IN THE DISCUSSION ON A DAY-TO-DAY BASIS. THERE WERE CERTAINLY SOME ASSOCIATION REPRESENTATION INITIALLY, BUT NOT SO MUCH DURING THE LEGISLATIVE PROCESS OBVIOUSLY. AND SO THERE'S LOTS OF CONFUSION. THERE'S LOTS OF MISUNDERSTANDING. THERE ARE SCHOOL DISTRICTS, TEACHERS AND ADMINISTRATORS, THAT THINK THERE'S NO MONEY IN THIS PROPOSAL FOR EXPERIENCED TEACHERS. THERE WILL BE A LOT OF MONEY IN THIS PROPOSAL FOR EXPERIENCED TEACHERS. IT'S GOING TO BE DIFFERENT FROM DISTRICT TO DISTRICT. IT'S COMPLEX TO EXPLAIN, BUT WHAT WE'RE GOING TO BE WORKING ON THIS SUMMER IS THE MECHANISMS THAT NEED TO BE THERE TO HELP PEOPLE UNDERSTAND, IN THEIR OWN DISTRICT, GIVEN THEIR OWN PAY SITUATIONS, HOW THIS IS GOING TO IMPACT THEM, WHAT THE ADVANTAGES AND DISADVANTAGES WILL BE. FRANKLY, THE BOTTOM LINE IS WE HAVE $31.2 MILLION TO ROLL INTO TEACHER COMPENSATION THIS NEXT FISCAL YEAR, AND MY INTENT AND THE INTENT OF THE DEPARTMENT AND THE STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION AND I THINK GOVERNOR VILSACK IS WE'RE GOING TO GET THAT DONE.

BECK: YOU MENTIONED EXPERIENCED TEACHERS AND I HEAR FROM THEM THROUGH THE IOWA STATE EDUCATION ASSOCIATION THAT THEY'RE FEARFUL THEY'LL GET LUMPED BACK WITH BEGINNING TEACHERS AND HAVE TO START THAT PROFESSIONAL DEVELOPMENT OVER AGAIN, MANY THINK THEY'VE ALREADY ACHIEVED, BEFORE THEY CAN GET A RAISE. IS THAT TRUE?

STILWILL: NO, IT'S REALLY NOT TRUE, IN FACT, PARTICULARLY IN THE FIRST YEAR. THE LEGISLATURE DID, I THINK, A VERY INTERESTING THING AND, QUITE HONESTLY, I BELIEVE A VERY WISE THING: THEY DIDN'T FINISH; THEY DIDN'T FINISH DEVELOPING A FOUR-LEVEL CAREER PATH. THEY JUST BUILT THE FIRST TWO LEVELS. SO THOSE TEACHERS THAT ARE THINKING, "WELL, I'M (AT) SUCH AND SUCH A PLACE ON A SALARY SCHEDULE, HOW WILL I TRANSITION TO THIS NEW SYSTEM?" THOSE SALARY SCHEDULES, AT LEAST FOR THE FIRST YEAR AND PROBABLY THE SECOND YEAR, WILL LIKELY REMAIN IN PLACE. WHAT WILL HAPPEN IS DISTRICTS WHO CHOOSE TO PARTICIPATE, BECAUSE IT'S OPTIONAL FOR DISTRICTS, THEIR FIRST OBLIGATION WILL BEGIN MOVING SALARIES UP FOR BEGINNING TEACHERS, FOLKS IN THEIR FIRST TWO YEARS. AND THEN FOR TEACHERS WHO HAVE THREE OR MORE YEARS OF EXPERIENCE, THEY HAVE TO MOVE SALARIES UP FOR THOSE INDIVIDUALS. ONCE THEY MEET THOSE OBLIGATIONS -- AND MOST DISTRICTS WILL BE ABLE TO DO THAT; PARTICULARLY THE BETTER-PAYING DISTRICTS WILL HAVE TO SPEND VERY LITTLE MONEY DOING THAT. AND THE REST OF THE ALLOCATION THAT THEY RECEIVE, THEY'LL BE ABLE TO DIVIDE AMONG EXPERIENCED TEACHERS.

GLOVER: ONE OF THE THINGS WE HEAR AT THE STATEHOUSE IS THAT THIS IS A RURAL/URBAN DISPUTE. WHEN YOU TALK ABOUT RAISING BEGINNING TEACHER PAY, YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT SENDING MONEY TO RURAL SCHOOLS, BECAUSE MOST SCHOOL DISTRICTS THAT DON'T MEET MINIMUM STANDARDS ARE RURAL. IS THIS A RURAL/URBAN THING? ARE WE, IN FACT, PUTTING A BUNCH OF MONEY IN TO PROP-UP RURAL SCHOOLS?

STILWILL: IT REALLY ISN'T A RURAL/URBAN THING AT ALL, MIKE. IT'S REALLY INTERESTING BECAUSE HISTORICALLY WHEN WE'VE RAISED MINIMUM PAY IN IOWA, THAT'S EXACTLY WHAT WE DID. THE PEOPLE THAT WERE PAYING THE WORST GOT THE MOST MONEY OUT OF THE STATE ALLOCATION.

GLOVER: HOW IS THIS DIFFERENT?

STILWILL: WE DID THAT TWICE AND, YOU KNOW, WE'RE SLOW, BUT IT ACTUALLY REWARDS DISTRICTS PAYING PEOPLE POORLY BECAUSE THE STATE WILL COME IN AND BAIL THEM OUT. THE ALLOCATION SYSTEM FOR THESE DOLLARS IS CONSISTENT ACROSS ALL SIZE DISTRICTS. FIFTY PERCENT OF THE MONEY -- THE FORMULA IS 50 PERCENT ON THE NUMBER OF STUDENTS AND 50 PERCENT ON THE NUMBER OF TEACHERS. THAT GIVES A VERY, VERY SLIGHT ADVANTAGE TO RURAL SCHOOLS THAT TEND TO HAVE MORE TEACHERS AGAINST THEIR STUDENT POPULATION. BUT LARGE SCHOOL DISTRICTS ARE GOING TO BENEFIT ENORMOUSLY BECAUSE THIS IS A FORMULA THAT'S VERY EQUITABLE WITHOUT MUCH REGARD TO DISTRICT SIZE.

GLOVER: ANOTHER RURAL/URBAN ISSUE THAT SURFACED THIS YEAR WAS THE IDEA OF ALTERNATIVE LICENSURE FOR TEACHERS, THE NOTION THAT A PERSON WITH A COLLEGE DEGREE, WHO HAD MAYBE A PROFESSION DOING SOMETHING ELSE, COULD TAKE A REFRESHER COURSE AND GO BACK INTO SCHOOLS. A LOT OF RURAL SCHOOLS WANT TO SEE THAT HAPPEN, SAYING THAT THEY NEED TEACHERS. WHAT WAS THE DEPARTMENT'S POSITION ON THAT? THE GOVERNOR VETOED IT.

STILWILL: ACTUALLY THE DEPARTMENT'S POSITION AND, FRANKLY, I BELIEVE GOVERNOR VILSACK'S POSITION, IS THAT WE'RE IN FAVOR OF ALTERNATIVE LICENSURE. IT HAS TO BE DONE RIGHT.

GLOVER: HOW DO YOU DO IT RIGHT?

STILWILL: THE LEGISLATION THAT PASSED, FRANKLY, WAS PRETTY AMBIGUOUS, VERY DIFFICULT FOR US. WE TOOK A VERY CLOSE LOOK AT IT. THERE'S SO MUCH ROOM FOR INTERPRETATION, WE DIDN'T BELIEVE WE COULD EVEN, THROUGH A RULE MAKING PROCESS THAT WE NORMALLY USE TO FOLLOW LEGISLATION AND CLARIFY SOME AMBIGUITY, WE DIDN'T BELIEVE WE COULD PUT IT TOGETHER. A GOOD ALTERNATIVE LICENSURE, AT LEAST TO BEGIN WITH -- A PROGRAM IN IOWA, A PREPARATION LICENSURE PROGRAM, BEGINS, FIRST OF ALL, BY TARGETING SHORTAGE AREAS. THOSE ARE THE MOST CRITICAL AREAS OF NEED. YOU DON'T NEED AN ALTERNATIVE LICENSURE PROGRAM FOR YOUR STANDARD ELEMENTARY TEACHER. WE HAVE, FRANKLY, AN OVERSUPPLY IN MOST PARTS OF THE STATE OF ELEMENTARY TEACHERS, BUT WE OUGHT TO TARGET ALTERNATIVE LICENSURE TO SHORTAGE AREAS AND WE OUGHT TO MAKE SURE THAT, PARTICULARLY GIVEN THE CHALLENGES IN TODAY'S CLASSROOMS, THAT THOSE INDIVIDUALS WHO MOVE INTO THOSE SHORTAGE AREA CLASSROOMS HAVE A CHANCE TO DEVELOP THEIR TEACHING SKILLS. THEY MAY HAVE THE CONTENT AREA BACKGROUND BY VIRTUE OF A FOUR-YEAR DEGREE OR LIFE EXPERIENCES OR JOB EXPERIENCE, BUT TODAY MORE THAN EVER, THE TEACHING SKILLS, TEACHING METHODS, TEACHING STRATEGIES, THE REPERTOIRE THAT A GOOD TEACHER NEEDS, THAT NEEDS TIME TO DEVELOP. THEY NEED TIME TO PRACTICE THAT UNDER THE SUPERVISION OF A GOOD TEACHER BEFORE THEY JUST MOVE RIGHT INTO THE CLASSROOM AND HAVE FULL RESPONSIBILITY FOR IT.

YEPSEN: WILL YOUR DEPARTMENT -- WILL YOU AND YOUR DEPARTMENT COME TO THE LEGISLATURE NEXT YEAR WITH AN ALTERNATIVE LICENSURE BILL?

STILWILL: I THINK THE GOVERNOR, TOGETHER WITH THE DEPARTMENT OF EDUCATION AND THE BOARD OF EDUCATIONAL EXAMINERS, WE'VE ALREADY TALKED ABOUT. AND REALLY WHAT WE REQUESTED OF LEGISLATURE WAS TIME TO PUT THAT TOGETHER.

YEPSEN: DO YOU FEEL FREE TO DO THAT, BECAUSE THE TEACHER'S UNION DOESN'T LIKE THIS IDEA? THEY'VE GOT SOME POLITICAL CLOUT WITH THE GOVERNOR, SO ARE YOU FREE TO COME FORWARD WITH AN ALTERNATIVE LICENSURE PLAN?

STILWILL: I THINK SO.

BECK: FOR ALL THE TALK OF TEACHER PAY AND K-12 SCHOOLS THIS YEAR, DISCUSSION OF COMMUNITY COLLEGES WAS SLIGHT, AND THEY CONTINUE TO FEEL SHORTCHANGED WITH THE EDUCATION SPENDING. HOW DO YOU FEEL ABOUT THAT?

STILWILL: I THINK THEY WERE SHORTCHANGED.

BECK: WHAT CAN BE DONE?

STILWILL: THERE ISN'T ANY QUESTION ABOUT THAT. IN A STATE WHERE, ACCORDING TO THE DATA THAT I'VE SEEN, NEARLY HALF THE WAGE EARNERS EARN UNDER $10 AN HOUR, AND THOSE PARENTS ARE NOW -- AND WHEN YOU NEED STUDENTS GRADUATING FROM HIGH SCHOOL TO ACCESS SOME DEGREE OF POST-SECONDARY EDUCATION IF THEY'RE GOING TO GET A GOOD JOB AND IF WE'RE GOING TO HAVE A STRONG ECONOMY, TO FORCE COMMUNITY COLLEGES INTO A SITUATION WHERE THEY INCREASE TUITION AND, THEREFORE, MAKE IT MORE DIFFICULT FOR THOSE STUDENTS TO ATTEND, THE VERY STUDENTS WHO WOULD BENEFIT THE MOST, I THINK IS JUST INCREDIBLY SHORTSIGHTED. IT'S A SITUATION WE CAN'T CONTINUE TO TOLERATE.

BECK: ARE THEY STILL THE UGLY STEPSISTER THAT DOESN'T GET THE SAME SORT OF FUNDING OR CLOUT IN THE LEGISLATURE AS THE REGENTS INSTITUTIONS?

STILWILL: QUITE FRANKLY, I THINK WE NEED TO THINK COLLECTIVELY ABOUT OUR ASSETS IN AN EDUCATIONAL SYSTEM. WE'RE EXTREMELY FORTUNATE IN IOWA. WE HAVE A GOOD K-12 SYSTEM. WE HAVE A GOOD COMMUNITY COLLEGE SYSTEM. WE HAVE A GOOD SYSTEM WITH THE BOARD OF REGENTS AND INDEPENDENT COLLEGES. I THINK WE NEED TO WORK ON THE CONNECTIONS. WE DON'T HAVE -- THERE ARE LOT OF STATES EVEN OUR SIZE THAT HAVE RESEARCH UNIVERSITIES, TIER OF STATE UNIVERSITIES, AREA VOCATIONAL SCHOOLS, JUNIOR COLLEGES, DIFFERENT KINDS OF SCHOOL DISTRICTS. WE HAVE A MUCH CLEANER, MUCH MORE EFFICIENT HIGHER EDUCATIONAL INFRASTRUCTURE. WE CAN USE IT TO GREAT ADVANTAGE AS WE WORK TOWARDS BUILDING A NEW ECONOMY IN IOWA. THAT EDUCATIONAL SYSTEM IS, I THINK -- I'M A LITTLE BIASED -- BUT OUR STRONGEST ASSET IN MOVING TOWARDS A NEW ECONOMY.

GLOVER: I KNOW YOU DON'T CONTROL THE BOARD OF REGENTS, BUT YOU'RE INVOLVED IN THE EDUCATIONAL SYSTEM OF THIS STATE. VERY QUIETLY WHAT'S HAPPENED OVER THE PAST SEVERAL YEARS IS, WHILE MOST OF THE ATTENTION HAS BEEN FOCUSED ON ELEMENTARY AND SECONDARY EDUCATION, JENEANE'S QUESTION ABOUT THE COMMUNITY COLLEGES, THE REGENTS HAVE BECOME THE SORT OF UGLY STEPSISTER OF THE EDUCATIONAL SYSTEM. THEY GOT CUT DEEPLY THIS YEAR. THEY DIDN'T DO VERY WELL LAST YEAR. ARE WE IN DANGER OF ENDANGERING THAT REGENTS SYSTEM?

STILWILL: I THINK WE COULD BE. I THINK WE HAVE TO LOOK AT THE COLLECTION OF ASSETS WE HAVE. AND THE REGENTS UNIVERSITIES, HAVING STRONG UNIVERSITIES, FOCUSED UNIVERSITIES, IS CRITICAL. IT'S JUST ABSOLUTELY MISSION CRITICAL. YOU NEED A STRONG SYSTEM OF FOUR-YEAR COLLEGES. YOU NEED RESEARCH CAPACITY IN THE STATE. IF YOU'RE GOING TO MOVE TOWARD STRONGER INFORMATION TECHNOLOGY, STRONGER ADVANCED MANUFACTURING, STRONGER WORK IN LIFE SCIENCES, IT'S THAT UNIVERSITY SYSTEM THAT'S GOING TO HELP DRIVE THE EXPERTISE THAT MAKES THAT HAPPEN. K-12 EDUCATION WILL BRING YOU ALONG IN TERMS OF LITERACY AND SORT OF A GOOD, BROAD LIBERAL ARTS BACKGROUND FOR KIDS. A TWO-YEAR SYSTEM IS CRITICAL NOW TO DEVELOP A SKILLED WORK FORCE. THERE ARE JUST NOT GOING TO BE JOBS FOR PEOPLE WITH JUST A HIGH SCHOOL DIPLOMA OR LESS. IF YOU BELIEVE THAT THE FUTURE OF IOWA'S ECONOMY IS EXPANDING THE MEATPACKING INDUSTRY, THEN YOU DON'T PAY ATTENTION TO THE HIGHER EDUCATION SYSTEM, BUT I DON'T THINK THAT'S WHAT OUR FUTURE NEEDS TO LOOK LIKE.

YEPSEN: HOW DO WE AFFORD THIS? I MEAN IT SOUNDS GOOD WHAT YOU'RE SAYING, EXCEPT IOWA ALREADY SPENDS AT ABOUT THE SEVENTH IN PER CAPITA LEVELS OF ALL THE STATES ON HIGHER EDUCATION. SO HOW DO WE AFFORD TO DO THIS AT A TIME THAT THE STATE IS BROKE AND THAT MOST IOWANS, AS JENEANE MENTIONED, EARN BELOW THE NATIONAL AVERAGE IN WAGES?

STILWILL: WELL, I DON'T KNOW THAT I'M AN EXPERT IN FINANCE POLICY OR ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT, BUT I CERTAINLY HAVE BECOME A LOT MORE INTERESTED BECAUSE OF THE VERY QUESTION THAT YOU'VE ASKED. I THINK THERE'S BEEN A FEELING IN IOWA THAT OUR NUMBER ONE PROBLEM IN TERMS OF ECONOMIC EXPANSION HAS BEEN THAT OUR TAXES ARE TOO HIGH. FRANKLY, I JUST HAVE TROUBLE BELIEVING THAT. I THINK ONE OF THE REASONS WE'RE BROKE, CERTAINLY NOT THE ONLY REASON THAT WE'RE IN FINANCIAL HARD TIMES, IS THE DATA THAT I LOOKED AT THIS WEEK SAID THAT IN NEXT YEAR'S BUDGET, WHICH HAS BEEN SO DIFFICULT TO COME TO, WE WOULD HAVE HAD $800 MILLION MORE IN REVENUE THAN WE DO TODAY HAD WE NOT DONE FIVE YEARS WORTH OF TAX REDUCTION, VARIOUS AND SUNDRY KINDS. AND, DAVE, I DON'T THINK THERE WAS NECESSARILY ANY PARTICULAR STRATEGY TO ALL THAT TAX REDUCTION THAT WAS -- THERE WAS A PLAN TO IMPROVE THE ECONOMY. I THINK IT WAS HOPED THAT THAT WOULD HAPPEN, AND IT DOESN'T APPEAR TO HAVE BEEN AN INCREDIBLE ECONOMIC STIMULUS, FROM WHAT WE'RE ABLE TO SEE TODAY.

YEPSEN: IS IT ONLY MONEY? I MEAN SINCE 1985, ACCORDING TO YOUR DEPARTMENT, K-12 SPENDING IN IOWA HAS DOUBLED. SO YOU'RE SAYING WE NEED MORE MONEY?

STILWILL: I'M SAYING YOU'VE GOT TO LOOK AT THOSE ASSETS; YOU PUT TOGETHER A PLAN, AND HOW YOU SPEND AND HOW YOU FUND THE DIFFERENT PARTS OF THAT SYSTEM ARE CRITICALLY IMPORTANT. WHAT'S HAPPENING RIGHT NOW, IN SPITE OF THE FACT WHAT SOME PEOPLE IN SCHOOL DISTRICTS ARE CONCERNED THAT THEY DIDN'T GET ALL THE FUNDING THEY WOULD HAVE LIKED THIS YEAR, THE LEGISLATURE AND THE GOVERNOR PUT AN INCREDIBLE PRIORITY ON K-12 EDUCATION. IT'S ABOUT THE ONLY SECTOR IN GOVERNMENT, THE ONLY SECTOR IN EDUCATION THAT I CAN SEE THAT REALLY GREW FINANCIALLY. THAT KIND OF PRIORITIZATION IS CRITICAL IF YOU'RE GOING TO MOVE THE STATE IN A NEW DIRECTION.

YEPSEN: GO BACK TO THE SMALL SCHOOLS FOR A MINUTE. THIS YEAR THE LEGISLATURE PASSED A BUDGET GUARANTY LAW THAT GUARANTEES THESE SMALL SCHOOLS: WE'RE GOING TO GIVE YOU THE SAME AMOUNT OF MONEY EVEN THOUGH YOUR STUDENT POPULATION IS GOING DOWN. WHAT WILL THAT MEAN?

STILWILL: WELL, THEY DID TWO THINGS, ACTUALLY. THEY RENEWED THAT BUDGET GUARANTY, BUT THEY ALSO PUT A DATE CERTAIN OUT THERE WHEN THEY'D NO LONGER PROVIDE THAT GUARANTY. NOW, IT'S A LONG, DECLINING TIME LINE, ABOUT A TEN-YEAR PERIOD. BUT AT SOME POINT, THAT GUARANTY WON'T BE THERE UNLESS THEY CHOOSE TO RENEW IT, WHICH THEY HAVE SOMETIMES DONE IN THE PAST. I THINK THERE'S A FEELING ON THE PART OF RURAL LEGISLATORS THAT THEY BETTER GET THAT DONE AND BETTER GET THAT DEAL CUT BEFORE THE LEGISLATURE PERHAPS CHANGED, AND SOMETIMES THE NUMBERS CHANGE IN THE LEGISLATURE. WE'RE GOING TO HAVE AN ENORMOUS CHALLENGE IN MEETING THE EDUCATIONAL NEEDS AND I THINK A LOT OF OTHER NEEDS IN RURAL IOWA AS POPULATION DECLINES. THE ADVANTAGE WE HAVE IN THE EDUCATIONAL FIELD IS WE CAN SEE THE NUMBERS. WE CAN SEE HOW MANY CHILDREN THERE ARE, AND IT DOESN'T LOOK GOOD. WE HAVE MORE THAN 60 PERCENT OF OUR DISTRICTS THAT CONTINUE TO PROJECT DECLINING ENROLLMENT OVER THE NEXT TEN YEARS. THAT EVENTUALLY TRANSLATES INTO THE NUMBER OF PEOPLE WHO WILL BE ABLE TO REPLACE OUR JOBS IN THE WORK FORCE. THERE JUST AREN'T PEOPLE THERE TO DO THE WORK. WE'RE GOING TO HAVE A DIFFICULT TIME NOT ONLY IN EDUCATION, BUT IN HEALTH CARE, HUMAN SERVICES, TRANSPORTATION, ALL KINDS OF AREAS, PROVIDING THE SUPPORT TO SUSTAIN THE QUALITY OF LIFE IN RURAL IOWA THAT PEOPLE HAVE BEEN USED TO.

BECK: YOU MENTIONED TAX CUTS. ONE PROPOSAL THAT IS BEING BALLIED AROUND THE STATEHOUSE IS A TAX INCREASE TAKING THE STATE SALES TAX UP ONE PERCENT SO THAT MONEY THAT IS BEING USED -- DES MOINES, POLK COUNTY ALREADY HAS AN EXTRA ONE-CENT SALES TAX TO HELP SCHOOLS DOING THAT, SO THEN THAT MONEY COULD BE SPLIT AMONG ALL SCHOOL DISTRICTS. DO WE NEED A TAX INCREASE? AND IF WE PASS SOMETHING LIKE THAT, DOES IT PROP-UP THOSE LOCAL SCHOOLS THAT HAVE DECLINING ENROLLMENT?

STILWILL: WELL, I'M NOT SURE THAT WOULD YIELD ENOUGH MONEY TO PROP-UP A LOT OF LOCAL SCHOOLS THAT HAVE DECLINING ENROLLMENT JUST BY DEDICATING THAT AMOUNT OF FUNDS TO INFRASTRUCTURE. A GREAT DEAL OF THAT WOULD ACTUALLY GO TO PROPERTY TAX REDUCTION. I'M NOT SURE THAT WE REALLY GAIN IN THE TOTAL RESOURCE BASE IN DEALING WITH A MUCH LARGER PROBLEM OF SCHOOL INFRASTRUCTURE. BUT, QUITE HONESTLY, APART FROM WHATEVER I MIGHT THINK IN THE EDUCATIONAL CONVERSATION, THE ADVANTAGE IS PRO AND CON. IN THIS KIND OF AN ECONOMY AND WITH THIS KIND OF COMPETITION IN THE BUDGET DEVELOPMENT PROCESS, UNFORTUNATELY, I THINK IT'S UNLIKELY THAT THE GENERAL ASSEMBLY WOULD CHOOSE TO TARGET PERHAPS ONE OF THE ONLY -- ONE AND ONLY REVENUE INCREASE OPPORTUNITIES TO WHAT THEY WOULD SEE AS, I THINK, A FAIRLY NARROW ISSUE AROUND JUST SCHOOL INFRASTRUCTURE.

GLOVER: ARE WE SEEING THE BEGINNING OF A DEBATE HERE OVER INCREASING TAXES? WE'VE HAD SEVERAL YEARS RUNNING, AS YOU MENTIONED, OF TAX CUTS, COMPLAINTS NOW IN STATE GOVERNMENT ABOUT SHORTAGE OF RESOURCES. IS THIS THE BEGINNING OF A DRUMBEAT LEADING UP TO A DEBATE OVER A TAX INCREASE? IS IT NEEDED? DO WE NEED TO RAISE TAXES?

STILWILL: AGAIN, I DON'T KNOW THAT I'M ENOUGH OF AN EXPERT IN TAX POLICY OR GOVERNMENT FINANCE TO SUGGEST THAT WE NEED A TAX INCREASE OR NOT. BUT I WILL SAY THAT THE COMPETITION FOR RESOURCES -- I THINK, FRANKLY, PEOPLE IN IOWA DON'T REALIZE HOW MUCH THE LEGISLATURE REDUCED GOVERNMENT SERVICES IN THIS LAST SESSION. EVERY OTHER DEPARTMENT IN STATE GOVERNMENT AND ACTUALLY THE OPERATING BUDGET IN THE IOWA DEPARTMENT OF EDUCATION, WE HAVE ABOUT A $6-MILLION BUDGET. WE'RE LOOKING TO FILL ABOUT A HALF-MILLION-DOLLAR HOLE IN THAT BUDGET AS OPPOSED TO OUR CURRENT BUDGET BECAUSE OF THE REDUCTIONS WE RECEIVED AND THE OTHER COSTS THAT AREN'T COVERED. THAT WOULD BE TYPICAL ACROSS STATE GOVERNMENT; AND IN MANY DEPARTMENTS, IT'S A MUCH WORSE SCENARIO. THEY'RE LOOKING AT DOUBLE-DIGIT REDUCTIONS IN THEIR BUDGET. SO WHETHER IT'S PROCESSING TAX REFUNDS, WHETHER IT'S TROOPERS ON THE ROAD -- AND I'M NOT JUST TRYING TO CREATE A SCARY SCENARIO -- THOSE ARE REAL REDUCTIONS. SOMETHING IS GOING TO HAVE TO CHANGE IN TERMS OF THE LEVEL OF SERVICE.

GLOVER: SO YOU ARE SAYING WE ARE GETTING THAT DEBATE?

STILWILL: WELL, I WOULD GUESS WE'RE EITHER GOING TO HAVE TO DECIDE WE WANT A LOWER QUALITY OF GOVERNMENT SUPPORT SERVICES. IT'S WANT A QUESTION OF -- I WAS STRUCK BY THE FACT THAT I SAW AN OPINION EDITORIAL BY DAVID FISHER A FEW WEEKS AGO IN "THE DES MOINES REGISTER" WHO, AS YOU ALL KNOW, WORKED WITH GOVERNOR BRANSTAD IN SOME COST SAVING MEASURES AND SOME STUDIES IN STATE GOVERNMENT AND ENDED UP IN SOME REDUCTIONS. HE STATED PRETTY CLEARLY HE DIDN'T THINK THERE WAS A LOT MORE FAT TO CUT OUT OF STATE GOVERNMENT. AND IN MY OWN CASE, I'M LOOKING AT MY OWN DEPARTMENT WHERE A THIRD -- WE'VE LOST MORE THAN A THIRD OF THE STATE-FUNDED POSITIONS OVER THE LAST TEN YEARS. WHERE WE USED TO HAVE THREE OR FOUR PEOPLE WORKING IN DRIVER EDUCATION, WE NOW HAVE THAT ON A VERY, VERY PART-TIME BASIS, WITH ONE INDIVIDUAL AND SO ON. WE CAN TELL THAT STORY OVER AND OVER AGAIN ACROSS STATE GOVERNMENT. THERE'S JUST NOT ROOM TO REDUCE BUDGETS WITHOUT SUBSTANTIALLY REDUCING SERVICES. I THINK THAT'S THE DECISION. DO WE WANT TO BE IN THAT KIND OF A STATE? AND WILL THAT HELP KEEP PEOPLE IN IOWA? WILL THAT HELP BRING PEOPLE TO IOWA? THE TAX STRUCTURE IN PLACES LIKE MINNESOTA, WHERE IT'S COLDER AND THEORETICALLY HAS ALL THE DISADVANTAGES THAT IOWA HAS, THEIR POPULATION IS GROWING AT LEAST AT TWO TIMES THE RATE IOWA IS.

YEPSEN: THEY CUT TAXES IN THE LAST LEGISLATIVE SESSION UP THERE.

STILWILL: IF YOU LOOK AT THE LONG-TERM TREND LINE --

YEPSEN: SINCE YOU WON'T TELL MIKE YOU WANT TO RAISE TAXES, WHERE DO YOU WANT TO CUT IN THE EDUCATION ARENA? I MEAN YOU JUST SAID WE KNOW THE STATE IS BROKE AND YOU KNOW THAT YOU HAVE TO MAKE REDUCTIONS. WHERE CAN EDUCATORS SAVE MONEY?

STILWILL: THE PLACES -- THERE ARE SOME MODEST PLACES TO SAVE MONEY, BUT THERE'S NOT A WHOLE LOT. THIS WILL SEEM LIKE AN ODD THING FOR ME TO SAY, BUT IT'S A FAIRLY EFFICIENT SYSTEM. YOU CAN SAVE SOME MONEY. THE FAVORITE THING PEOPLE LOOK AT IS REALLY SCHOOL DISTRICT CONSOLIDATION. FRANKLY, THIS DOESN'T SAVE A TREMENDOUS AMOUNT OF MONEY. IT SAVES SOME ADMINISTRATIVE COSTS; BUT AT BEST, IN A $2 OR $3-BILLION AREA OF EXPENDITURE, SAVES SOMEWHERE IN THE NEIGHBORHOOD OF $5 TO $10 MILLION, IF YOU BROUGHT ALL THE SMALL SCHOOL DISTRICTS TO THE ADMINISTRATIVE EXPENDITURE LEVEL OF THE MEDIAN-SIZED DISTRICT, WHICH WOULD BE -- WE'VE REDUCED -- CONSOLIDATED A NUMBER OF DISTRICTS OVER THE LAST TEN YEARS, BUT YOU'D HAVE TO GO PRETTY FAR AND PRETTY FAST TO ACHIEVE THOSE KINDS OF SAVINGS. I THINK WE'RE GOING TO HAVE TO LOOK AT ACHIEVING SAVINGS WITHIN EDUCATION BY WORKING WITH OTHERS OUTSIDE OF EDUCATION. WE'RE GOING TO HAVE TO LOOK AT TRANSPORTATION SYSTEMS, FOR EXAMPLE, IN RURAL IOWA AND NOT WORRY ABOUT TRANSPORTING ADULTS AND STUDENTS AT DIFFERENT TIMES ON DIFFERENT VEHICLES. THEY MAKE VEHICLES THAT ARE SAFE FOR BOTH. NUTRITION PROGRAMS, CONGREGATE MEAL SITES, SCHOOLING LUNCH PROGRAMS, LIBRARIES, RECREATION CENTERS, AND SO ON, THAT'S GOING TO HELP US MAINTAIN QUALITY OF LIFE IN RURAL IOWA. IT'S ALSO GOING TO HELP US ACHIEVE SOME EFFICIENCIES ACROSS-THE-BOARD.

BECK: TO COME FULL CIRCLE, $40 MILLION INTO TEACHER PAY THIS YEAR. HOW CONCERNED ARE YOU THAT THEY ARE GOING TO BOOST THAT NEXT YEAR? WHERE WILL THE MONEY COME FROM? AND WHAT HAPPENS IF THEY DON'T?

STILWILL: WELL, YOU KNOW, WITH ABOUT A WEEK TO GO IN THIS LAST LEGISLATIVE SESSION, THERE WAS NOT MUCH OPTIMISM THAT WE'D SEE $40 MILLION. IN FACT, THE LEGISLATURE WAS POISED TO GET OUT OF TOWN WITH FUNDING TEACHER COMPENSATION AT -- WITH REALLY JUST BUILDING IN SUPPORT COSTS FOR ABOUT $8 MILLION AND THINGS THAT WE WERE ALREADY DOING...NATIONAL BOARD AND INCREASING THE INDUCTION OF MENTORING, WHICH WOULD HAVE BEEN VERY IMPORTANT. THE GOVERNOR AND THE LEGISLATURE, PARTICULARLY THE GOVERNOR, WAS ABLE TO MOVE THAT AS A PRIORITY AND MOVE IT AHEAD. THAT'S WHAT'S GOING TO HAVE TO HAPPEN NEXT YEAR IN A BUDGET YEAR, FROM WHAT ALL OF US SEE, IS GOING TO BE EVERY BIT, IF NOT MUCH TIGHTER, NEXT YEAR.

GLOVER: WHAT ARE WE ASKING SCHOOLS TO DO IN THIS STATE? HOW MUCH OF WHAT WE'RE TRYING TO DO WITH EDUCATION IS IMPROVING SCHOOLS, AND AT WHAT POINT DO WE NEED TO MOVE BEYOND THAT WHEN DEALING WITH SOCIETAL PROBLEMS LIKE POVERTY, KIDS THAT COME TO SCHOOL HUNGRY, KIDS THAT COME TO SCHOOL NOT READY TO LEARN?

STILWILL: I THINK WE'VE ALREADY BEGUN TO DEAL WITH THAT, AND YOU'RE EXACTLY RIGHT. WE USED TO THINK THAT JUST BY BEEFING THINGS UP WHEN KIDS HIT KINDERGARTEN OR FIRST GRADE, WE MIGHT BE ABLE TO CATCH UP AND SOLVE THE PROBLEM. WE NOW KNOW THAT UNLESS WE LOOK AT EARLY EDUCATION INITIATIVES BY INCLUDING PARENT EDUCATION -- WE HAVE A LOT OF YOUNG PARENTS WITH KIDS ONE OR TWO YEARS OF AGE, AND THEY DON'T HAVE THE SUPPORT SYSTEM AROUND. THEY'RE ASKING FOR HELP. THESE ARE PARENTS OF ALL SOCIOECONOMIC LEVELS, NOT JUST POOR PARENTS WHO DON'T KNOW A LOT ABOUT HOW TO RAISE KIDS. AND THERE ARE GRANDPARENTS, AUNTS, UNCLES, AND A LOT OF PARENTS THAT CAN'T AFFORD GOOD CHILD CARE, AND IOWA HAS NO STANDARDS FOR CHILD CARE.

YEPSEN: MR. STILWILL, YOU'RE SHORT OF MONEY AND I'M SHORT OF TIME.

STILWILL: ALL RIGHT.

YEPSEN: WE'RE DONE. THANKS FOR BEING WITH US. APPRECIATE IT. NOW, ON OUR NEXT EDITION OF "IOWA PRESS," WE FOCUS ON THE POLICY AND POLITICS OF UTILITIES... SPECIFICALLY, UTILITY REGULATION AND PLANT SITING IN IOWA. JOINING US ARE TWO EXPERTS IN THE FIELD, ALLAN THOMS, WHO SERVES AT CHAIRMAN OF THE IOWA UTILITIES BOARD, AND GARY STEWART, WHO IS THE CONSUMER ADVOCATE IN THE IOWA ATTORNEY GENERAL'S OFFICE. NEXT SUNDAY "IOWA PRESS" AIRS AT NOON ONLY HERE ON STATEWIDE IOWA PUBLIC TELEVISION, SO BE SURE TO RESET THE VCR. DEAN BORG RETURNS WITH US NEXT SUNDAY, AND I HOPE YOU WILL AS WELL. I'M DAVID YEPSEN. THANKS FOR JOINING US HERE ON "IOWA PRESS."

NARRATOR: FUNDING FOR "IOWA PRESS" HAS BEEN PROVIDED BY FRIENDS OF IOWA PUBLIC TELEVISION; AND BY THE IOWA BANKERS ASSOCIATION...FOR PERSONAL, BUSINESS, AND COMMERCIAL NEEDS, IOWA BANKS HELP IOWANS REACH THEIR FINANCIAL GOALS; BY THE ASSOCIATION OF BUSINESS AND INDUSTRY...THE VOICE OF IOWA BUSINESS, REPRESENTING THE INTERESTS OF OVER 1,500 IOWA BUSINESSES EMPLOYING 300,000 IOWANS; AND BY THE ASSOCIATED GENERAL CONTRACTORS OF IOWA...THE PUBLIC'S PARTNER IN BUILDING IOWA'S HIGHWAY, BRIDGE, AND MUNICIPAL UTILITY INFRASTRUCTURE.