Iowa Public Television

Narrator: FUNDING FOR "IOWA PRESS" WAS PROVIDED BY FRIENDS OF IOWA PUBLIC TELEVISION; AND BY THE IOWA BANKERS ASSOCIATION... FOR PERSONAL, BUSINESS, AND COMMERCIAL NEEDS, IOWA BANKS HELP IOWANS REACH THEIR FINANCIAL GOALS.

THIS IS THE SUNDAY, JULY 29 EDITION OF "IOWA PRESS." HERE IS DEAN BORG.

Borg: IN THE CAMPAIGN OF 1998, GUBERNATORIAL CANDIDATE TOM VILSACK DISCUSSED WAYS TO STABILIZE AND THEN INCREASE IOWA'S POPULATION. TWO YEARS LATER, FOLLOWING THE CENSUS OF 2000, GOVERNOR TOM VILSACK CONFIRMED WHAT MOST HAD ALREADY SUSPECTED, THAT IOWA'S GROWTH RATE AMONG YOUNGER AND PARTICULARLY AMONG WELL-EDUCATED WORKERS WASN'T ENOUGH TO EVEN REPLACE THOSE RETIRING FROM THE WORK FORCE. INDEED, WITH ONE OF THE LOWEST GROWTH RATES IN THE ENTIRE NATION, BUSINESS LEADERS AND ECONOMISTS WARN THAT IOWA'S LABOR-FORCE DEFICIT ISN'T A FUTURE PROBLEM; IT'S HERE NOW AND THEY SAY IT'S SUFFOCATING ECONOMIC EXPANSION. WELL, THEN GOVERNOR VILSACK RESPONDED WITH A THREE-PRONGED PLAN: FIRST TO ACTIVELY RECRUIT FORMER IOWANS TO RETURN TO THE STATE AND PERHAPS BRING THEIR BUSINESSES WITH THEM; AND, SECONDLY, TO ACTIVELY ENCOURAGE BOTH HIGH SCHOOL AND COLLEGE GRADUATES TO REMAIN IN IOWA; AND, THIRD, TO USE THE IMMIGRATION AND RESETTLEMENT STRATEGY TO FILL BOTH HIGH- AND LOW-TECH JOBS. IT'S THAT THIRD PROPOSAL THAT'S WAVED A RED FLAG AT SOME GROUPS. THREE IOWA CITIES -- MARSHALLTOWN, MASON CITY, AND FORT DODGE -- WERE GIVEN ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT DEMONSTRATION GRANTS AS A PART OF "THE NEW IOWANS MODEL CITIES PROJECT." BUT ALONG WITH THE CASH ASSISTANCE HAVE COME ANTI-IMMIGRATION PETITION DRIVES QUESTIONING THE WISDOM, EVEN THE PHILOSOPHY, OF BRINGING NEWCOMERS AND MORE ETHNIC DIVERSITY TO IOWA. WELL, JOINING US TODAY IS CRAIG NELSEN... HE'S FOUNDER AND NATIONAL DIRECTOR OF "PROJECT USA"; AND REPRESENTATIVE JACK HATCH, A DEMOCRATIC LEGISLATOR FROM DES MOINES. GENTLEMEN, WELCOME TO "IOWA PRESS."

THANK YOU.

Borg: AND THEY'LL BE QUESTIONED BY IOWA STATEHOUSE REPORTERS JENNIFER DUKES LEE OF "THE DES MOINES REGISTER" AND MIKE GLOVER OF "THE ASSOCIATED PRESS."

Glover: MR. NELSEN, AS DEAN MENTIONED, IMMIGRATION IS THE TOPIC. IT'S ONE OF THE MOST EMOTIONAL ISSUES OUT THERE, AND WE'RE HERE WITH RED FLAGS WAVING. LET'S START WITH THE BASICS. WHAT'S WRONG WITH BRINGING MORE IMMIGRANTS TO IOWA AND OTHER STATES IN AMERICA? AND WHAT DO YOU SAY TO CHARGES THAT OPPONENTS SUCH AS YOURSELF ARE RACIST?

Nelsen: WELL, IN THE FIRST PLACE, I GUESS, WHAT WE'RE TALKING ABOUT IS POPULATION GROWTH OF THE UNITED STATES. SO IT IS A NATIONAL ISSUE, WHICH HAS LOCAL IMPLICATIONS. THE UNITED STATES IS NOW GROWING AT A FASTER RATE THAN CHINA. MOST AMERICANS HAVE AGREED THAT WE SHOULD NOT HAVE AN IMMIGRATION POLICY THAT IS FORCING OUR POPULATION TO DOUBLE WITHIN THE LIFETIME OF TODAY'S CHILDREN. I THINK ALMOST ALL AMERICANS WOULD AGREE THAT THAT'S WAY TOO HIGH, AND OUR POSITION IS THAT WE NEED TO LOWER IT. TO THOSE PEOPLE WHO CHARGE US WITH BEING RACISTS, OUR ANSWER IS THAT OF COURSE THEY'RE GOING TO SAY THAT, THEY HAVE NOTHING ELSE TO SAY. YOU CAN'T SAY THAT IMMIGRATION IS GOOD FOR -- MASS IMMIGRATION IS GOOD FOR LOW-INCOME AMERICANS. YOU CAN'T SAY THAT MASS IMMIGRATION IS GOOD FOR OUR SCHOOL SYSTEMS OR OUR HEALTH CARE SYSTEMS. YOU CAN'T SAY THAT MASS IMMIGRATION IS GOOD FOR OUR ENVIRONMENT. SO WHAT CAN THEY SAY? OH, IT MUST BE RACIST.

Glover: REPRESENTATIVE HATCH, AS A PRACTICAL MATTER, HAVE YOU PICKED A LOSER OF AN ISSUE HERE? REGARDLESS OF THE POWER OF YOUR RHETORIC, REGARDLESS OF THE FORCE OF YOUR ARGUMENTS, POLLS SHOW 80 PERCENT OF IOWANS OPPOSE YOU. HAVEN'T YOU LOST THIS BATTLE BEFORE IT STARTS, AND GIVEN THAT YOU HAVE, IN THE LEGISLATURE, BEEN AN ADVOCATE, GENERALLY, FOR DIVERSITY ISSUES?

Hatch: WELL, THE QUESTION THAT WE'RE DEBATING TODAY SHOULD BE THE QUESTION THAT WAS PRESENTED LAST WEDNESDAY NIGHT IN MASON CITY WHEN THEY HAD A PUBLIC FORUM. AND I THINK THE TWO SPEAKERS THAT ADDRESSED THE ISSUE THE BEST WAS FIRST LIONEL FOSTER, WHO IS THE HUMAN RIGHTS DIRECTOR FOR THE CITY OF MASON CITY. HE GOT UP AND SAID TO THE CROWD, "THIS IS NOT A QUESTION OF NATIONAL IMMIGRATION POLICY. IF THAT'S WHAT MR. NELSEN WANTS TO DO, HE SHOULD DEBATE THIS ISSUE IN WASHINGTON D.C. WHERE HE COULD ACTUALLY DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT. WHAT WE HAVE TO DISCUSS IN IOWA IS HOW WE'RE GOING TO REPLACE THE SHRINKING WORK FORCE." THAT'S THE ISSUE THAT HE ARTICULATED AND THAT RECEIVED A ROUND OF APPLAUSE. THE SECOND PERSON THAT SPOKE WAS COUNCILWOMAN LAURIE HENRY, WHO ARTICULATED EVEN FURTHER THE NEED TO REPLACE THE WORKERS THAT ARE LEAVING THE STATE OR THAT WE CAN'T ATTRACT TO MAKE BUSINESSES GROW. GOVERNOR VILSACK WAS VERY, VERY, I THINK, FORTHCOMING IN MAKING THIS NOT A DIVERSITY ISSUE AND NOT AN IMMIGRATION ISSUE. IT'S AN ECONOMIC ISSUE. IT'S AN ISSUE IN WHICH IOWA HAS TO GROW. THAT'S WHO WILL BE THE BIGGEST LOSER, MIKE. NOT THESE SUBGROUPS THAT WE LIKE TO THROW OUT IN FRONT OF PEOPLE TO GET PEOPLE FEARFUL OF THE GROWTH OF IOWA, BUT WHETHER OR NOT IOWA IS GOING TO GROW, BE COMPETITIVE, ATTRACT WORKERS AND, MORE IMPORTANTLY, ATTRACT BUSINESSES WHO WILL GIVE GOOD PAYING JOBS TO IOWANS. THAT'S WHAT WE WILL DO. WE NEED TO CREATE WEALTH IN THIS STATE, AND THE WAY WE DO IT IS THROUGH A STRATEGY THAT GOVERNOR VILSACK ARTICULATED AND I THINK HAS THE SUPPORT OF MOST LEGISLATORS.

Lee: MR. NELSEN, YOU'RE FROM NEW YORK. YOUR GROUP IS FROM NEW YORK. YOU COULD BE IN WASHINGTON, D.C. THIS WEEK. YOU COULD BE IN CALIFORNIA. INSTEAD, YOU'RE IN A STATE THAT'S 96 PERCENT WHITE. WHY ARE YOU IN IOWA THIS WEEK?

Nelsen: WELL, I GUESS I'LL RESPOND TO MR. HATCH ON THIS, TOO. WHEN GOVERNOR VILSACK ADVOCATED IOWA PUT ITSELF ABOVE U.S. IMMIGRATION LAW AND TURN IOWA INTO ANOTHER ELLIS ISLAND, HE MADE IMMIGRATION IN IOWA A NATIONAL ISSUE. "PROJECT USA" IS A NATIONAL GROUP, AND IOWA IS A PART OF THE UNITED STATES. SO WHEN WE FOUND OUT THAT THERE WERE PETITION DRIVES, HUGE PETITION DRIVES AGAINST THE GOVERNOR'S IRRESPONSIBLE PLAN IN FORT DODGE AND MASON CITY, WE WERE, OF COURSE, VERY ENCOURAGED THAT LOCAL PEOPLE WERE SPEAKING OUT AGAINST THIS KIND OF RECKLESSNESS.

Lee: REPRESENTATIVE HATCH, DO WE NEED TO BE HAVING THIS DEBATE HERE?

Hatch: OH, ABSOLUTELY. WE NEED TO HAVE A DEBATE ABOUT THE GROWTH OF IOWA. DO WE NEED TO HAVE A DEBATE ABOUT THE IMMIGRATION POLICY OF THE UNITED STATES? NO, THAT'S NOT WHAT WE'RE HERE FOR. TO HAVE A DEBATE ABOUT THE GROWTH OF IOWA AND HOW IOWA GROWS IS VERY APPROPRIATE. AND THE ONE SECTION OF GOVERNOR VILSACK'S PROPOSAL, THE THIRD LEG OF A THREE-LEGGED STOOL -- DEAN, YOU TALKED ABOUT IT: ONE, WAS TO ATTRACT FORMER IOWANS TO COME BACK; TWO, TO KEEP PEOPLE HERE, ESPECIALLY YOUNG PEOPLE; THREE, RECRUIT OTHER PEOPLE, INCLUDING IMMIGRANTS, TO COME TO IOWA SO THAT THEY CAN JOIN AND INCREASE OUR WORK FORCE. ALL THREE OF THOSE PROPOSALS SHOULD BE DISCUSSED. WHAT HAS HAPPENED IS THAT GROUPS THAT PRETEND TO BE REFORMIST, THAT ARE REALLY REACTIONARY, ARE COMING INTO THE STATE, LIKE "PROJECT USA," MISINFORMING PEOPLE WITH INFORMATION AND STATISTICS AND MANIPULATING THE TRUTH AND PLAYING OFF FEARS. WE SHOULD HAVE A DISCUSSION. THAT'S WHAT THIS COUNTRY IS ABOUT. THAT'S WHY PEOPLE COME TO AMERICA, BECAUSE OF OUR FREEDOMS AND OUR LIBERTY. TO HAVE HIM COME TO IOWA, WE WELCOME HIM.

Glover: MR. NELSEN, YOU'VE JUST BEEN ACCUSED OF MISINFORMING PEOPLE. HOW DO YOU RESPOND?

Nelsen: WELL, OUR FACTS ARE ALL TAKEN FROM THE CENSUS BUREAU, SO IF MR. HATCH HAS A PROBLEM WITH THE CENSUS BUREAU, YOU KNOW, I DON'T KNOW WHAT TO SAY ABOUT THAT. IT IS TRUE THAT THE POPULATION OF THIS COUNTRY IS DOUBLING BECAUSE OF OUR IMMIGRATION POLICY. 90 PERCENT -- AND THIS IS ACCORDING TO THE CENSUS BUREAU -- OF U.S. POPULATION GROWTH IN THIS CENTURY WILL BE DRIVEN BY THE CURRENT WAVE OF MASS IMMIGRATION. SURELY THE AMERICAN PEOPLE AND AMERICAN COMMUNITIES HAVE A RIGHT TO DISCUSS AND HAVE INPUT INTO A POLICY THAT'S SO RADICALLY GOING TO ALTER OUR COUNTRY. AND I'D LIKE TO SAY SOMETHING ABOUT WHAT MR. HATCH JUST SAID ABOUT THE GOVERNOR'S PLAN BEING ABOUT ATTRACTING YOUNG IOWANS AND THINGS OF THIS NATURE AND JUST BEING SLIGHTLY ABOUT IMMIGRATION. THE VERY FIRST LINE OF THE NEW IOWA PROJECT -- PILOT PROJECT SAYS THAT, AND I QUOTE, "IS TO ATTRACT FOREIGN LABOR." IT'S ALL ABOUT IMMIGRATION. NOW THAT SO MANY REGULAR PEOPLE AND PETITION SIGNERS HAVE SPRUNG UP IN A GRASS-ROOTS EFFORT TO RESIST THE CHEAP LABOR PLAN OF GOVERNOR VILSACK, THE GOVERNOR HAS DONE A 180. I THINK WHAT THIS SHOWS US -- AND NOW HE'S SAYING, "OH, IT'S TO GET YOUNG IOWANS AND IT'S NOT ABOUT IMMIGRATION AT ALL, WE WERE JUST KIDDING" OR SOMETHING LIKE THAT. AND I THINK THIS SHOWS THAT WE ARE VINDICATED IN OUR -- IN OUR CLAIM THAT THIS MASS IMMIGRATION IS DRIVEN MOSTLY BY SPECIAL INTERESTS AND THE CHEAP LABOR LOBBY, AND REGULAR AMERICANS DO NOT WANT IT.

Borg: REPRESENTATIVE HATCH, BUILDING ON WHAT MR. NELSEN HAS JUST SAID, IS IT TRUE THAT IOWA DOESN'T REALLY HAVE THE ABILITY TO ATTRACT WORKERS FROM OTHER STATES AND SO WE'VE PROVIDED INCENTIVE FOR THOSE WHO DON'T HAVE AS GOOD OF WORKING CONDITION WHERE THEY LIVE RIGHT NOW, PERHAPS IN A FOREIGN COUNTRY, AND SO THAT'S THE FERTILE FIELD FOR IOWA TO ATTRACT?

Hatch: THERE ARE A COUPLE OF, I THINK, PREMISES OF WHY GOVERNOR VILSACK USED THE THREE-LEGGED-STOOL STRATEGY. IT'S NOT TRIVIALIZING THE ISSUE BY TRYING TO ATTRACT IMMIGRANTS TO IOWA, BUT IT'S ONE OF THREE STRATEGIES. AND "THE NEW IOWA MODEL CITIES COMMUNITY" DOES FOCUS ON IMMIGRATION RECRUITMENT AND ALSO ATTRACTING NEW IOWANS AND KEEPING IOWANS HERE. IT IS ABOUT ATTRACTING AND EXPANDING THE WORK FORCE. THE FACT THAT IOWA SHOULD BE KIND OF A MAGNET FOR PEOPLE IS BECAUSE OUR STATE IS A GREAT STATE. WE HAVE CLEAN WATER. WE HAVE BLUE SKIES. WE'VE GOT GREAT OPPORTUNITIES. WE HAVE A GREAT EDUCATIONAL SYSTEM. IOWA IS A STATE THAT CAN ATTRACT A WHOLE WIDE RANGE OF PEOPLE, AND WHEN MR. NELSEN TRIVIALIZES THE ABILITY OF IOWA AS A STATE TO PROVIDE OPPORTUNITIES -- ECONOMIC OPPORTUNITIES, I THINK THIS, YOU KNOW, IDENTIFIES THAT THE POSITION THAT HIS ORGANIZATION TAKES IS TO FOCUS ON THE WEAKEST LINK OF A PUBLIC POLICY. THIS IS OUR POLICY IN IOWA. IT'S NOT A POLICY FROM SOMEONE FROM NEW YORK CITY. IF HE WANTS TO COME HERE -- MR. NELSEN, YOU KNOW, THE TRUTH IS A VERY POWERFUL THING, AND FACTS LEAD TO HELP UNDERSTAND THE TRUTH. YOUR STATISTICS -- LET ME JUST TAKE SOMETHING THAT YOU HAD OFF OF YOUR WEB SITE AND THAT YOU PASSED OUT YESTERDAY, WEDNESDAY, IN MASON CITY. YOU SAID 90 PERCENT OF THE U.S. POPULATION GROWTH IN THIS CENTURY IS DUE TO THE CURRENT WAVE OF IMMIGRATION, MOST OF WHICH IS LEGAL. NOW, YOU QUOTED THE U.S. CENSUS BUREAU. THIS IS NOT TRUE. THE U.S. CENSUS BUREAU SAYS THAT IMMIGRATION LEADS TO ABOUT 37 PERCENT OF THE POPULATION GROWTH OF THE NATION. IN IOWA, WE SEE THIS AS AN OPPORTUNITY. YOU MAY NOT LIKE THAT IN NEW YORK CITY, BUT IN DES MOINES, IOWA, AND MASON CITY, IOWA, WE NEED AND WANT SKILLED WORKERS.

Borg: LET'S GIVE HIM A CHANCE TO RESPOND.

Nelsen: RIGHT. IT IS ACTUALLY TRUE. IN THE QUOTE YOU READ, IT SAYS "IN THIS CENTURY." AND IT'S ABSOLUTELY TRUE, BY 2100, THAT THE POPULATION GROWTH THAT THE U.S. WILL HAVE EXPERIENCED WILL BE DRIVEN.

Hatch: LET'S TALK ABOUT ANOTHER STATISTIC.

Nelsen: IT IS TRUE. BUT I'D LIKE TO RESPOND TO ONE THING THAT YOU SAID. YOU SAID THAT IOWA CAN ATTRACT PEOPLE FROM OTHER STATES THROUGH ITS GREAT EDUCATIONAL SYSTEM. HOWEVER, IF YOU JUST LOOK AT THE EXPERIENCES OF THOSE STATES WHO HAVE RECKLESSLY AND IRRESPONSIBLY RELIED ON THE IMPORTATION OF FOREIGN, CHEAP LABOR TO FILL LOW-WAGE JOBS IN THEIR STATE, THE EDUCATIONAL SYSTEMS HAVE SUFFERED TERRIBLY. CALIFORNIA WAS AT ONE TIME RANKED THE HIGHEST IN THE COUNTRY IN EDUCATION. NOW IT'S AT OR NEAR THE BOTTOM.

Borg: BUT IS NOT THE PROJECT HERE IN IOWA, MR. NELSEN, TO, AS I SAID IN OUR OPENING, TO ATTRACT PEOPLE WHO ARE WELL-EDUCATED IN THEIR HOME COUNTRY TO FILL HIGH-TECH JOBS HERE? WOULD YOU OBJECT TO THAT?

Nelsen: WELL, ONE THING I'D LIKE TO FIRST POINT OUT ABOUT THAT: WE SEE ON TELEVISION, ALL THE TIME, PICTURES OF PEOPLE IN POOR COUNTRIES WHO ARE STRUGGLING WITH GREAT POVERTY, LOTS OF SOCIAL INJUSTICE, AND THINGS OF THIS NATURE. THERE ARE SOME PEOPLE IN THOSE COUNTRIES WHO ARE SKILLED AND WELL- EDUCATED WHO COULD PROBABLY HELP THE PEOPLE IN THOSE COUNTRIES. WHAT RIGHT DOES THE UNITED STATES HAVE TO BE HARVESTING THOSE PEOPLE TO BRING THEM HERE? OUR COUNTRY IS ALREADY GOOD. WE'RE DOING A GOOD JOB. WHY SHOULD WE BE TAKING THOSE PEOPLE WHO COULD BE AGENTS OF CHANGE IN OTHER COUNTRIES.

Glover: MR. NELSEN, LET'S TALK ABOUT AN IOWA-SPECIFIC ISSUE. (A) THE DEMOGRAPHICS OF THIS STATE ARE FLAT. WE ALMOST LOST A SEAT IN CONGRESS IN THE LAST CENSUS. WE CERTAINLY WILL LOSE A SEAT IN CONGRESS IF GROWTH RATES CONTINUE. SO WHAT SHOULD THE STATE DO? SIT BY AND SHRINK AND SHRIVEL AWAY?

Nelsen: I'M NOT SURE. IN 1970 THE ROCKEFELLER COMMISSION, AFTER A VERY GOOD, LONG STUDY, CAME TO THE CONCLUSION THAT PROBABLY THE WORLD SHOULD SEEK POPULATION STABILIZATION, AND INCLUDING THE UNITED STATES. WE WOULD HAVE ACHIEVED THAT WITHOUT OUR -- AMERICANS AGREED AND LIMITED THEIR FAMILY SIZE, AND WE WOULD HAVE ACHIEVED POPULATION STABILIZATION AT ABOUT 2030. AND IOWA, I THINK, IS ONLY GROWING AT ABOUT 5 PERCENT. [ SPEAKING AT ONCE ]

Glover: REPRESENTATIVE HATCH, WHERE DO YOU THINK THE GOVERNOR IS ON THIS? THE GOVERNOR INITIALLY CAME OUT WITH A PLAN THAT WOULD HAVE CALLED FOR RECRUITING PEOPLE TO MOVE INTO THE STATE. NOW HE SAYS THAT WASN'T REALLY THE PLAN AND HE JUST WANTS TO HAVE A DIALOGUE ON IT. WHERE DO YOU THINK HE IS?

Hatch: I DON'T THINK THE GOVERNOR HAS CHANGED. I THINK THE GOVERNOR WANTS TO CALL A DIALOGUE BECAUSE PEOPLE WANT TO TALK ABOUT IT. AND I THINK, JENNIFER, YOU ASKED THAT QUESTION: IS THIS A GOOD THING TO DISCUSS, AND IT IS. BUT THE POLICY OF THIS STATE HAS TO BE IN WHICH WE ARE GOING TO HAVE A STRATEGY THAT IS MULTILEVEL, IS THAT WE'RE GOING TO KEEP PEOPLE HERE. WE'VE GOT TO PROVIDE OPPORTUNITY FOR THAT. WE'VE GOT TO TELL THE YOUNG PEOPLE OF IOWA THAT THERE'S OPPORTUNITY AND THERE'S GROWTH FOR YOU AND THERE'S REASON TO STAY HERE AND NOT TO LEAVE, AND THAT WE HAVE TO INCREASE OUR WORK FORCE BY GOING OUT TO OTHER STATES AND OTHER NATIONS. AND I THINK THE GOVERNOR UNDERSTANDS THAT. HE SUPPORTS IT. HE'S PROMOTING IT BUT I THINK HE ALSO WANTS TO SAY, "LISTEN, THIS HAS CREATED SOME DISCUSSION, LET'S HAVE A DIALOGUE." AND WE SHOULD OPEN OUR ARMS TO THE DIALOGUE THAT WE WANT. I HAVE TO SAY, THOUGH, THAT THIS IS PRETTY OUTRAGEOUS FOR "PROJECT USA" TO COME INTO IOWA. THERE'S NO SUPPORT FOR THE STATISTICS HE'S USING. HE'S TALKING ABOUT OPINIONS. HE'S TALKING ABOUT HIS OPINIONS. HE'S NOT TALKING ABOUT IOWA'S OPINIONS. LAST WEDNESDAY NIGHT IN MASON CITY, OVERWHELMINGLY A NUMBER OF PEOPLE WHO ATTENDED THAT MEETING, OVER 250, WERE IN SUPPORT OF THE CITY COUNCIL'S RESOLUTION TO PARTICIPATE IN THE "MODEL CITIES PROGRAM." THERE WAS NO DISCUSSION, NO RESOLUTION, NO MASS CLAPPING, NO RESCIND, NO ISSUE, NO QUESTION TO RESCIND THEIR SUPPORT AND PARTICIPATION. THAT'S WHAT IS IMPORTANT HERE. NOT WHAT GOES ON IN NEW YORK CITY, WHAT HAPPENS IN MASON CITY.

Lee: QUESTION FOR BOTH OF YOU, AND I'LL START WITH YOU, MR. NELSEN. AREN'T YOU REALLY RESORTING TO SCARE TACTICS HERE IN IOWA?

Nelsen: WELL, IF YOU GET AN ACCURATE ASSESSMENT OF CAUSE AND SPREADING INFORMATION FROM THE CENSUS BUREAU, IF MR. HATCH THINKS THAT'S SCARE TACTICS, THEN I GUESS I HAVE NO ANSWER FOR HIM. BUT I WOULD LIKE TO SAY THAT I THINK IOWANS DO WELCOME THE GOVERNOR'S NEW APPRECIATION FOR OPEN DIALOGUE. THEY WERE VERY RESENTFUL OF THE GOVERNOR AND SOME OF THE POLITICIANS IN THIS STATE JUST SPRINGING THIS "NEW IOWANS INITIATIVE" ON THEM. BUT IF -- YOU KNOW, MR. HATCH IS TALKING ABOUT THE MASON CITY COUNCIL MEETING LAST NIGHT. I WAS THERE AND I SAW A HUGE NUMBER OF PEOPLE SHOW UP. THEY USED UP ALL THE CHAIRS THEY HAD. THEY BROUGHT IN NEW ONES. THERE STILL WEREN'T ENOUGH CHAIRS. THEY WERE STANDING AROUND THE WALLS. THERE WAS NO PUBLIC OPINION SURVEY TAKEN, SO IT WOULD BE HARD TO SAY WHO SUPPORTED WHAT. BUT THERE WAS GOOD, OPEN DISCUSSION. PEOPLE ON BOTH SIDES HAD THEIR SAY. PEOPLE ON BOTH SIDES WERE CHEERED. AND I THINK THAT THE ATTENDANCE ALONE SHOULD TELL IOWANS AND THE GOVERNOR AND THE ELECTED OFFICIALS IN THIS STATE THAT THIS IS AN IMPORTANT ISSUE THAT PEOPLE CARE ABOUT.

Lee: ON THE FLIP SIDE, REPRESENTATIVE HATCH, SOME PEOPLE SAY THAT PROPONENTS OF IMMIGRATION MIGHT BE USING SCARE TACTICS TOO, THAT WE WILL FACE A SERIOUS LABOR SHORTAGE. THEY RAISE THE RACISM FLAG ANYTIME A GROUP LIKE "PROJECT USA" COMES IN. HOW DO YOU RESPOND TO THAT?

Hatch: WELL, I'D LIKE TO GO BACK TO THE 2010 REPORT, THE BIPARTISAN REPORT BY THE GOVERNOR. IT WAS CHAIRED BY DAVID OMEN. DAVID OMEN IS A REPUBLICAN. HE WAS THE CHIEF-OF-STAFF OF TWO REPUBLICAN GOVERNORS, AND HE WAS A CANDIDATE FOR THE REPUBLICAN NOMINATION OF GOVERNOR AT THE TIME THAT GOVERNOR VILSACK RAN. DAVID OMEN AND BETSY BRANSGAARD, THE TWO COCHAIRS, AND THE OTHER 34 PEOPLE ON THAT COMMISSION ARE NOT RAISING ANY RED FLAGS ABOUT RACISM OR ABOUT PROVIDING MISINFORMATION. IT IS VERY CLEAR IN THEIR REPORT THAT WE ARE ON A SLIPPERY SLOPE, THAT IF WE DON'T DO SOMETHING, CRITICALLY SOMETHING SOON, THEN THE LABOR SHORTAGE IS GOING TO HURT US. IF WE DON'T HAVE LABOR WORK FORCE, BUSINESSES WON'T EXPAND, BUSINESSES WON'T COME HERE, IOWANS WON'T BE ABLE TO COMPETE, AND WE'LL LITERALLY HAVE AN ECONOMIC CRISIS. AND THAT'S WHAT THEY'RE SAYING. IT'S NOT A SCARE TACTIC. IT'S A PUBLIC POLICY ISSUE THAT IS WELL-DOCUMENTED IN OVER THIRTY YEARS OF POPULATION STATISTICS.

Glover: REPRESENTATIVE HATCH, LET'S START DOWN THAT SLIPPERY SLOPE AND BRING THE ISSUE BACK HOME AGAIN. IS THERE ANYTHING THE LEGISLATURE NEEDS TO DO ON THIS ISSUE?

Hatch: WELL, YES, THERE IS. AND WE HAVE TO SEPARATE WHO IS COMING INTO THIS NEXT YEAR, THE POLITICAL RHETORICS THAT WE'LL HEAR, INCLUDING FROM MY SIDE OF THE AISLE, THE DEMOCRATS. WE'RE ALREADY HEARING IT FROM REPUBLICANS. MY TWO GOOD FRIENDS, CHUCK LARSON AND BOB SUKUP, TALKED ABOUT HOW THE GOVERNOR RETREATED. THE GOVERNOR DIDN'T RETREAT. WE HAVE TWO POLITICIANS, ONE CHAIRMAN OF THE REPUBLICAN PARTY AND THE OTHER A CANDIDATE FOR GOVERNOR, WHO WANT TO TRY TO FIND AN ISSUE THAT'S LEGITIMATE. FIND AN ISSUE THAT THEY CAN DISAGREE WITH THE GOVERNOR AND TRY TO EXPOSE IT. THAT'S GOOD POLITICS. I'M AFRAID THAT'S ALL WE'RE GOING TO GET THIS NEXT SESSION. BUT ONE OF THE FEW THINGS WE COULD SERIOUSLY DISCUSS IS THE EXPANSION OF THE "NEW IOWAN'S COMMUNITY". THE REASON THAT THE "MODEL CITIES" PROGRAM WAS ESTABLISHED WAS EXACTLY WHAT MR. NELSEN SAID HE WANTED, A DIALOGUE. IT IS A PLAN DEVELOPMENT OF BRINGING TOGETHER WORKERS FROM OTHER NATIONS AND OTHER STATES INTO A COMMUNITY AND HAVE IT PLANNED DEVELOPED SO THAT YOU HAVE -- YOU HAVE THE INTEGRATION OF THE SCHOOLS, YOU HAVE THE SOCIAL SERVICES, YOU HAVE THE BUSINESSES, YOU HAVE THE HOUSING AVAILABLE. THAT'S EXACTLY WHAT WE SHOULD BE DOING, AND THE LEGISLATURE SHOULD LOOK AT THAT AND EXPAND IT.

Glover: MR. NELSEN, WHAT DO YOU WANT THE LEGISLATURE AND GOVERNOR IN THIS STATE TO DO? WHAT ACTIONS SHOULD BE TAKEN, IF ANY?

Nelsen: WELL, IN MY CONVERSATIONS WITH IOWANS AROUND THE STATE, IT SEEMS CLEAR TO ME THAT A LOT OF IOWANS WOULD SUPPORT STATEWIDE INITIATIVES THAT, FOR ONE, WOULD HELP THE LOCAL LAW ENFORCEMENT AND INS WORK TOGETHER TO ENFORCE OUR IMMIGRATION LAWS. ANOTHER THING THAT SEEMS CLEAR TO ME IS THAT MOST IOWANS RESENT THE FACT THAT THESE LARGE -- THAT THE CHEAP LABOR LOBBY CAN BRING IN, FOR LARGE CORPORATIONS, IMMIGRANTS AND THEN FORCE THE TAXPAYERS TO PAY FOR HEALTH CARE.

Glover: WHO'S DOING THAT? STATE OR BIG COMPANIES?

Nelsen: WELL, I THINK IT'S THE COMPANIES. BUT THESE ARE SOME OF THE THINGS --

Glover: SO THE STATE'S JUST STOPPING IT --

Nelsen: WELL, I THINK THE LEGISLATURE --

Glover: -- STOCK COMPANIES LIKE IBP, LET'S BE FAIR.

Nelsen: YOU ASKED ME ABOUT THE LEGISLATURE AND MAYBE THIS IS SOMETHING THAT --

Glover: WELL, SHOULD THE LEGISLATURE PASS A LAW BLOCKING COMPANIES LIKE IBP FROM IMPORTING WORKERS AND THEN DUMPING THEM ON LOCAL COMMUNITIES.

Nelsen: WELL, HOWEVER THE LABOR THING WORKS OUT, AT LEAST THE LOCAL PEOPLE SHOULDN'T HAVE TO PAY FOR THEIR HEALTH CARE. MAYBE IBP COULD BE TAXED. I DON'T KNOW. BUT THAT'S SOMETHING THAT LEGISLATURES COULD WORK TO WORK OUT.

Lee: REPRESENTATIVE HATCH, IS THE STATE WILLING TO STEP UP TO THE PLATE TO HELP IMMIGRANTS AS THEY MOVE HERE, ESPECIALLY IN A TIME OF TIGHT STATE FINANCES?

Hatch: I COULD TAKE YOU BACK TO THE 1970S, WHEN GOVERNOR RAY COURAGEOUSLY PRESENTED IOWA AS A PLACE FOR IMMIGRANTS FROM SOUTHEAST ASIA TO COME. WE HAD THE LARGEST PER CAPITA INFLUX OF IMMIGRANTS FROM SOUTHEAST ASIA THAN ANY STATE IN THE NATION. DID THAT DESTROY OUR CULTURE? NO, IT ADDED TO IT. DID IT DESTROY OUR ECONOMY? NO, IT CREATED MORE GROWTH. WE ARE NOT -- AND WE HAVE TO UNDERSTAND THAT WE'RE NOT TALKING ABOUT ALL POOR, ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS IN THIS COUNTRY. WE WANT TO TALK ABOUT LEGAL IMMIGRANTS. THE 3,300 IOWANS, IMMIGRANTS, THAT ARE REGISTERED IN THE LAST CENSUS BY BUSINESSES ARE HIGHLY SKILLED; 66 PERCENT OF THEM ARE COMPUTER TECHNICIANS WITH COMPUTER-ORIENTED PROFESSIONALS. THEY'RE DOCTORS. THEY'RE NURSES. THESE ARE PEOPLE THAT WILL CREATE A BETTER INFRASTRUCTURE FOR OUR COMMUNITIES, ESPECIALLY WHEN YOU HAVE CERRO GORDO COUNTY. AND THE COUNCILWOMAN HENRY WAS VERY CLEAR LAST NIGHT. SHE SAID, "THIS COUNTY HAS LOST 6 PERCENT OF THE POPULATION. WE CANNOT SIT BACK. WE CANNOT JUST CLOSE OUR EYES BECAUSE WE'RE PART OF IT. WE'RE ON THAT SLIPPERY SLOPE. WE HAVE TO INCREASE THE POPULATION OF THIS COUNTY. WE CAN ONLY DO IT WITH THE PROPOSALS THAT THE GOVERNOR HAS SUBMITTED THEY ENDORSE THAT."

Lee: DOES THAT MEAN THAT THE STATE NEEDS TO STEP UP TO THE PLATE WITH MONEY?

Hatch: THE STATE NEEDS TO RECRUIT. THE GOVERNOR NEEDS TO RECRUIT. THE AGENCIES NEED TO RECRUIT. THE BUSINESSES NEED TO RECRUIT. THE COMMUNITIES NEED TO RECRUIT. AND IN THE RECRUITMENT, THERE WILL BE EXPENSES. BUT IN EVERY UNDERSTANDING OF RECRUITMENT, WHETHER OR NOT IT'S FOR COLLEGE STUDENTS IN CHICAGO OR IMMIGRANTS IN OTHER COUNTRIES, THERE WILL BE A PAYOFF TO THE BENEFIT OF IOWA BY THE JOBS THEY TAKE AND THE STABILITY THAT THEY WILL PROVIDE.

Lee: MR. NELSEN, NOW, IS THAT AN OVERWHELMING BURDEN ON THE STATE TO HAVE TO PAY THOSE EXPENSES OR TO OTHER GOVERNMENT ENTITIES?

Nelson: WELL, JENNIFER, I THINK MR. HATCH KEEPS BRINGING UP THIS IDEA THAT THERE'S SOMETHING CALLED A LABOR SHORTAGE IN IOWA. IN A FREE-MARKET SYSTEM THAT'S AS LARGE AS OURS, THERE'S NO SUCH THING AS A LABOR SHORTAGE. WHAT THERE IS, IS A SHORTAGE OF EMPLOYERS WHO ARE WILLING TO PAY A DECENT WAGE TO ATTRACT WORKERS. THE BEST WAY TO ATTRACT WORKERS IS TO RAISE WAGES. EVERYBODY KNOWS THAT. MY DAD WORKED IN A MEATPACKING PLANT IN OMAHA IN THE EARLY '60S AND MADE $6 AN HOUR. IN TODAY'S DOLLARS, THAT'S $34 AN HOUR. I BET IF IBP WERE PAYING $34 RATHER THAN THE $9 THEY'RE PAYING NOW OR $10, WHATEVER IT IS, THEY COULD ATTRACT SOME WORKERS.

Hatch: IF I COULD JUST RESPOND TO THAT.

Borg: GO AHEAD.

Hatch: MR. NELSEN LIKES TO BRING THIS UP AS A WORKER ISSUE. IF THIS WAS REALLY A WORKER ISSUE FOR "PROJECT USA," THEY WOULD NOT JUST BE TALKING ABOUT WAGES, THEY'D BE TALKING ABOUT COLLECTIVE BARGAINING AGREEMENTS, THEY'D BE TALKING ABOUT WORKER SAFETY ISSUES, THEY'D BE TALKING ABOUT THE RIGHT-TO-WORK ISSUES, THEY'D BE TALKING ABOUT ISSUES THAT WORKERS REALLY NEED IN THIS STATE. AND IF HE UNDERSTOOD THAT AND BECAME PART OF THE REFORM MOVEMENT, THAT WOULD BE PART OF HIS RHETORIC. IT'S NOWHERE IN HIS RHETORIC RIGHT NOW.

Borg: LET'S GIVE HIM A CHANCE TO RESPOND.

Nelsen: YEAH, I WOULD LIKE TO RESPOND TO THAT. THE UNIONS IN THE MEATPACKING PLANTS IN THIS STATE IN THE '60S WERE VERY STRONG. THIS HAS HAPPENED OVER AND OVER AGAIN WHERE MASS IMMIGRATION HAS BEEN USED AS A WAY TO BREAK UNIONS. SAMUEL GOMPERS, WHO FOUNDED THE AMERICAN FEDERATION OF LABOR, SAID, IN 1924 IN A LETTER TO CONGRESS, "THERE WILL ALWAYS BE TWO FORCES WHICH DRIVE MASS IMMIGRATION INTO THE UNITED STATES, AND FORCES OF CONSIDERABLE STRENGTH. THE FIRST WILL BE CORPORATE EMPLOYERS WHO DESIRE A STEADY STREAM OF CHEAP, FOREIGN LABOR, PLIABLE LABOR THAT THEY CAN USE." HE CALLED THEM BROADBACKS. THE OTHER WILL BE RACIAL GROUPS IN THIS COUNTRY WHO SEEK AN INFLUX OF THEIR COUNTRYMEN REGARDLESS OF THE MENACE TO OTHER COUNTRY'S PEOPLE.

Borg: MIKE.

Glover: MR. NELSEN, I'D LIKE TO SEE WHERE THIS PLAYS OUT. HOW DOES THIS WHOLE THING UNFOLD OVER THE NEXT YEAR? ARE WE GOING TO BE SEEING YOUR GROUP HOLDING TOWN MEETINGS NEXT FALL WITH WHOEVER RUNS AGAINST GOVERNOR VILSACK? IS THIS GOING TO BECOME A POLITICAL ISSUE IN THE NEXT CAMPAIGN, AND ARE YOU GOING TO TRY TO DRIVE IT?

Nelsen: WELL, WE WON'T TRY TO DRIVE IT.

Glover: WILL YOU BE THE ONE WHO STARTS THE DRIVING?

Nelsen: RIGHT. WELL, YOU KNOW, WE'RE IN STATES ALL OVER THE COUNTRY. WE ARE A NATIONAL GROUP. AND I THINK MR. HATCH WOULD PROBABLY AGREE THAT WE DON'T LOSE OUR FIRST AMENDMENT RIGHTS WHEN WE CROSS INTO IOWA. IT WOULDN'T BE VERY WELCOMING. BUT WE ARE GOING TO PUSH FORWARD. AND WE'VE BEEN TALKING TO LAW ENFORCEMENT AND POLITICIANS HERE IN THE STATE, AND THEY HAVE SOME GREAT IDEAS ON HOW THIS COULD MOVE FORWARD. TOWN MEETINGS HAVE COME UP. WE'D LIKE TO INVITE THE GOVERNOR TO APPEAR WITH US IN TOWN MEETINGS AROUND THE STATE TO DISCUSS THIS ISSUE WITH THE LOCAL PEOPLE.

Glover: SO A GOAL IS TO MAKE THIS AN ISSUE IN THE NEXT GUBERNATORIAL CAMPAIGN.

Nelsen: WELL, IT'S TO MAKE -- OUR GOAL IS TO RAISE PUBLIC DEBATE, AND IT ALWAYS HAS BEEN FROM THE DAY I STARTED "PROJECT USA." IT'S ALWAYS BEEN TO INCREASE PUBLIC DEBATE ABOUT THIS ISSUE IN THE COUNTRY. WHETHER IT'S IN IOWA, OR NEW YORK CITY, WHERE WE'RE ALSO ACTIVE. ANYWHERE WE'RE ACTIVE, THIS IS WHAT WE'RE TRYING TO DO.

Glover: REPRESENTATIVE HATCH, IS THAT WHAT THIS IS ALL ABOUT, SETTING UP SOME ISSUES FOR NEXT YEAR?

Hatch: WELL, IT'S PARTLY ABOUT THAT. IT'S PARTLY ABOUT TRYING TO EMBARRASS THE GOVERNOR AND PUT A WEDGE BETWEEN HIM AND THE PEOPLE OF THIS STATE. BUT MR. NELSEN, AGAIN, IF YOU'RE GOING TO COME TO THIS STATE, WHICH WE DO WELCOME YOU, IF YOU'RE GOING TO ENGAGE IN DIALOGUE, WHICH WE WANT YOU TO, YOU'VE GOT TO BE STRAIGHT NOT ONLY ON THE FACTS BUT MAYBE ON HISTORY. FOR EXAMPLE, WHEN YOU SAID THAT MASS IMMIGRATION WAS THE CAUSE FOR MEATPACKING PLANTS TO FORCE THE WAGES DOWN, IS JUST HISTORICALLY INACCURATE. THE STRIKE THAT CREATED LOW WAGES IN THE MEATPACKING WAS IN AUSTIN --

Borg: MR. HATCH, I'D LIKE TO LISTEN TO HISTORY, BUT WE'RE RUNNING OUT OF TIME.

Hatch: LET ME BE REAL QUICK ON THIS, BECAUSE WHAT IT IS, IS MASS IMMIGRATION HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH THE MEATPACKING PLANT BEING REDUCING THESE WAGES. IT HAPPENED TO DO, IN 1970, WHEN THEY FORCED LABOR TO FORCE THEIR NEGOTIATIONS, AND IT WAS REPLACED BY NONLABOR PEOPLE AND NONIMMIGRATION PEOPLE.

Borg: JENNIFER.

Lee: ANOTHER QUESTION. WE'VE TALKED A LOT ABOUT WHAT GOVERNMENT IS SUPPOSED TO DO. WHAT ABOUT THESE OTHER INSTITUTIONS, SOCIAL INSTITUTIONS, CIVIC GROUPS, CHURCHES? DO YOU HAVE AN ANSWER, REPRESENTATIVE HATCH?

Hatch: SURE, I THINK THEY SHOULD BE ENGAGED IN THIS DISCUSSION. THERE'S A LOT OF SUPPORT. THERE'S A LOT OF -- THERE'S A GREAT NEED FOR ALL OF IOWA, ALL OF THE INSTITUTIONS FROM CHURCHES, FROM SCHOOLS, FROM NONPROFIT CORPORATIONS, FROM NEIGHBORHOODS TO GET INVOLVED IN THIS DEBATE AND DECIDE WHETHER OR NOT THEY'RE GOING TO BE A WELCOMING COMMUNITY OR THEY'RE GOING TO BE REACTIVE AND REACTIONARY AND CLOSE THE DOORS TO THEM.

Glover: MR. NELSEN, ARE YOU ENGAGING THOSE GROUPS?

Nelsen: AM I ENGAGING THEM?

Glover: MM-HMM.

Nelsen: WELL, YEAH. WITH THE PETITION SIGNERS, THESE PETITIONS THAT STARTED IN MASON CITY AND FORT DODGE, SURE, I ENCOURAGE THAT. I GUESS I AGREE WITH MR. HATCH THAT THIS IS SOMETHING THAT THE WHOLE COMMUNITY AND NOT JUST A FEW POLITICIANS AND THE CHEAP LABOR LOBBY SHOULD BE INVOLVED IN.

Borg: MR. NELSEN, CAMPAIGNS TAKE MONEY. ARE YOU GOING TO BE RAISING MONEY IN IOWA?

Nelsen: WE'RE A NONPROFIT, TAX-EXEMPT ORGANIZATION, AND WE GRATEFULLY ACCEPT DONATIONS OVER THE INTERNET.

Borg: I WISH THAT WE COULD GO ON WITH THE DISCUSSION BUT, AS I SAID EARLIER, WE'RE OUT OF TIME. THANK YOU VERY MUCH FOR BEING WITH US TODAY.

THANK YOU.

Borg: ON OUR NEXT EDITION OF "IOWA PRESS," WE'LL EXPLORE THE FAITH-BASED INITIATIVE OF PRESIDENT GEORGE W. BUSH PROPOSING TO PROVIDE FEDERAL FUNDS TO RELIGIOUS AND OTHER PRIVATE ORGANIZATIONS PROVIDING SOCIAL SERVICES. JOINING US FOR THAT DISCUSSION, FORMER STATE REPRESENTATIVE CHUCK HURLEY, WHO IS PRESIDENT OF THE IOWA FAMILY POLICY CENTER, AND ATTORNEY R. BEN STONE, EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR OF THE IOWA CIVIL LIBERTIES UNION. THAT'S NEXT SUNDAY AT NOON AND 7:00 HERE ON STATEWIDE IOWA PUBLIC TELEVISION. THAT'S IT FOR THIS WEEK'S EDITION OF "IOWA PRESS." I'M DEAN BORG. THANKS FOR JOINING US TODAY.

Narrator: FUNDING FOR "IOWA PRESS" WAS PROVIDED BY FRIENDS OF IOWA PUBLIC TELEVISION; AND BY THE IOWA BANKERS ASSOCIATION... FOR PERSONAL, BUSINESS, AND COMMERCIAL NEEDS, IOWA BANKS HELP IOWANS REACH THEIR FINANCIAL GOALS.