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Former Ambassador to Cambodia Dr. Kenneth Quinn and Former Ambassador to Boznia-Herzegovina John Menzies (#3028)
February 28, 2003

Borg: ONGOING INTERNATIONAL TENSIONS ARE INCREASING PRESSURES ON THIS NATION'S DIPLOMATS ABROAD. PERSPECTIVE FROM TWO IOWANS -- FORMER AMBASSADOR TO CAMBODIA DR. KENNETH QUINN AND FORMER AMBASSADOR TO BOSNIA-HERZEGOVINA JOHN MENZIES -- ON THIS EDITION OF "IOWA PRESS."

FUNDING FOR THIS PROGRAM WAS PROVIDED BY "FRIENDS," THE IOWA PUBLIC TELEVISION FOUNDATION... GENERATIONS OF FAMILIES AND FRIENDS WHO FEEL PASSIONATE ABOUT THE PROGRAMS THEY WATCH ON IOWA PUBLIC TELEVISION; AND BY THE IOWA BANKERS ASSOCIATION... FOR PERSONAL, BUSINESS, AND COMMERCIAL NEEDS, IOWA BANKS HELP IOWANS REACH THEIR FINANCIAL GOALS; AND BY THE ASSOCIATED GENERAL CONTRACTORS OF IOWA... THE PUBLIC'S PARTNER IN BUILDING IOWA'S HIGHWAY, BRIDGE, AND MUNICIPAL UTILITY INFRASTRUCTURE.

ON STATEWIDE IOWA PUBLIC TELEVISION, THIS IS THE FRIDAY, FEBRUARY 28 EDITION OF "IOWA PRESS." HERE IS DEAN BORG.

Borg: UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCE, REPRESENTING UNITED STATES' INTERESTS IN FOREIGN CAPITALS IS A CHALLENGE. IT'S EVEN MORE SO IN TODAY'S HIGHLY CHARGED ENVIRONMENT WHERE THE PROSPECT OF ARMED CONFLICT AND TERRORISM OUT OF THE SHADOWS IS AN EVER-PRESENT CONCERN. WHILE ULTIMATE RESPONSIBILITY FOR FOREIGN POLICY DOES REST IN WASHINGTON, D.C., THE FOREIGN SERVICE CORP, THE FRONT-LINE DIPLOMATS, CARRY OUT THAT POLICY. WELL, TODAY ON "IOWA PRESS," WE TAKE A STEP BACK TO DISCUSS THE PROCESS AND TO FOCUS ON THE MISSION OF OUR FOREIGN SERVICE OFFICERS WITH TWO FORMER AMBASSADORS. DR. KENNETH QUINN REPRESENTED U.S. INTERESTS IN CAMBODIA, AND HE'S NOW PRESIDENT OF THE WORLD FOOD PRIZE FOUNDATION. DR. JOHN MENZIES IS THE FORMER AMBASSADOR TO BOSNIA-HERZEGOVINA, AND HE'S NOW THE NEW PRESIDENT OF GRACELAND UNIVERSITY IN LAMONI. GENTLEMEN, WELCOME TO "IOWA PRESS." I LOOK FORWARD TO YOUR INSIGHTS. ACROSS THE TABLE: "DES MOINES REGISTER" POLITICAL COLUMNIST DAVID YEPSEN AND "RADIO IOWA" NEWS DIRECTOR KAY HENDERSON.

Henderson: MR. QUINN, LET'S BEGIN WITH A TOPIC THAT EVERYONE IS TALKING ABOUT: IRAQ. DO YOU THINK WAR WITH IRAQ IS INEVITABLE?

Quinn: IT CERTAINLY SEEMS THAT IT'S EXTREMELY LIKELY. IT'S HARD TO IMAGINE HAVING CLOSE TO 200,000 TROOPS IN THE REGION POISED, READY TO GO INTO ACTION WHEN THE PRESIDENT DIRECTS THEM TO DO THAT. BUT I STILL THINK THERE ARE POSSIBILITIES FOR INTERNAL THINGS THAT COULD HAPPEN IN IRAQ. I DON'T KNOW THAT THEY'RE VERY LIKELY, BUT IF THERE WERE TO BE A CHANGE IN THE GOVERNMENT THAT DIDN'T MAKE WAR AND A MILITARY ATTACK NECESSARY, THAT STILL COULD HAPPEN.

Henderson: MR. MENZIES, DO YOU AGREE THAT WAR IS INEVITABLE OR LIKELY?

Menzies: I THINK THAT THE TONE OF THE DEBATE HAS SHIFTED IN VERY MATERIAL WAYS. THE DISCUSSION NOW IS VERY OFTEN OF LIBERATION. THE FOCUS HAS SHIFTED TO THE PEOPLE OF IRAQ WHO ARE -- LET'S BE QUITE CLEAR ABOUT THIS -- THE GREATEST BENEFICIARIES OF AN INTERVENTION THAT WILL BRING LIBERTY TO THEM AND THE OPPORTUNITY FOR NORMAL LIVES AND A NEW FORM OF GOVERNMENT.

Henderson: GIVEN YOUR CAREERS, LOOKING AT THIS OUTSIDE LOOKING IN, BECAUSE YOU'RE NO LONGER IN THE FOREIGN SERVICE, MR. QUINN, DO WE NEED TO GO TO WAR WITH IRAQ?

Quinn: WELL, THAT'S DEFINED BY POLICYMAKERS IN WASHINGTON. AND I THINK THE PRESIDENT HAS TO DO THAT. HE HAS TO DISCUSS IT WITH THE CONGRESS, THE CONGRESS HAS TO TAKE ACTIONS, AND IT SEEMS TO ME THE CONGRESS AND THE SENATE HAS PASSED RESOLUTIONS PUSHING US IN THAT DIRECTION. BUT WHETHER WE HAVE TO DEPENDS ON WHAT ARE THE OUTCOMES AND WHAT ARE THE GOALS AND ABOUT REMOVING WEAPONS OF MASS DESTRUCTION AND ASSURING THAT THEY'RE NOT THERE, ASSURING THAT WE'RE SAFE. SO I THINK THAT WAR IS ALWAYS THE LAST RESORT. AND IF NOTHING ELSE WORKS, THEN WE MAY BE IN THE POSITION WHERE THAT IS VIEWED FROM WASHINGTON AS THE ONLY CHOICE LEFT.

Yepsen: MR. MENZIES, WHAT DO YOU THINK?

Menzies: WELL, I THINK THAT NO FURTHER LEGISLATION IS REQUIRED ON THE PART OF OUR GOVERNMENT. THE ACTIONS TAKEN BY THE CONGRESS LAST YEAR ARE SUFFICIENT FOR THE PRESIDENT TO TAKE WHATEVER ACTION HE BELIEVES IS REQUIRED FOR THE GOOD AND SECURITY OF THE UNITED STATES. I THINK WE'RE MOVING INEXORABLY IN THAT DIRECTION, AND I BELIEVE IT IS PROBABLY THE BEST OUTCOME AT THIS POINT. THAT'S JUST A PERSONAL VIEW.

Yepsen: MR. QUINN MENTIONED THERE MAY BE SOME OTHER OPTIONS. IS THERE A BACKDOOR WAY OUT OF THIS NOW? THE IRAQI PEOPLE TAKE MATTERS INTO THEIR OWN HANDS, IS THAT LIKELY? THERE'S BEEN TALK -- CONGRESSMAN LEACH HERE SUGGESTED WE DO MORE TO TRY TO FOSTER SOME SORT OF POLITICAL ASYLUM FOR SADDAM HUSSEIN. ARE THERE SOME BACKDOOR OPTIONS HERE YET?

Menzies: I CAN ENVISION A GOAL-LINE TACKLE OF SORTS, WHEREBY THE PEOPLE OF IRAQ WOULD THROW OFF THE REGIME, BUT IT'S HIGHLY UNLIKELY. THEY STILL CONTROL THE LEVERS OF POWER. AND UNLIKE OTHER REGIMES THAT HAVE BEEN TOPPLED IN THE PAST DECADE OR SO, THEY ARE NOT AFRAID TO USE THOSE LEVERS OF POWER TO THE EXTREME. THEY HAVE GASSED THEIR OWN PEOPLE. THEY HAVE DONE ALL KINDS OF DREADFUL THINGS TO THEIR OWN PEOPLE. I DON'T THINK IT'S LIKELY THAT THE PEOPLE CAN MUSTER THE FORCE AND WILL THAT HAVE REQUIRED.

Yepsen: WHAT DO YOU -- MR. MENZIES, WHAT DO YOU GET -- WHAT DO YOU TELL AN IOWAN WHAT ASKS, "WHY DO WE NEED TO BE DOING THIS"? I HEAR THAT QUESTION A LOT. A LOT OF PEOPLE IN IOWA, YOU KNOW, "WHY DO WE NEED TO BE PICKING ON IRAQ RIGHT NOW?"

Menzies: BECAUSE IT'S THE RIGHT THING TO DO. I THINK WE HAVE TO DO THIS FOR THE SECURITY OF OUR OWN PEOPLE. REMEMBER 9/11. I DO BELIEVE THAT HE WAS SEEKING WAYS OF INFLICTING DAMAGE TO OTHER NEIGHBORS AND TERRORIZING OTHER PEOPLE OR BLACKMAILING OTHER NEIGHBORS.

Borg: I WANT TO DRAW A PARALLEL WITH YOUR EXPERIENCE WITH BOSNIA-HERZEGOVINA AND THE CURRENT SITUATION IN IRAQ AS IT RELATES TO THE NEED FOR INTERVENTION, NUMBER ONE, AND ALSO THE NEED FOR A COALITION. OF COURSE, NATO WAS INVOLVED IN THE FORMER, IN BOSNIA-HERZEGOVINA. BUT WHAT'S THE IMPORTANCE OF THE COALITION AND THE NEED FOR THE COALITION HERE? IS IT ABSOLUTELY ESSENTIAL?

Menzies: YES, A COALITION IS VITAL AND WE ALREADY HAVE A COALITION OF THE WILLING. SOME ARE JOKING THE COALITION OF THE "BILLING" BECAUSE OF THE PAYOFFS THAT PEOPLE ARE PROJECTING. BUT INDEED THERE ARE OTHER NATIONS THAT ARE WILLING TO GO IN WITH US. WE NEED THEM SO THAT IT DOES NOT LOOK, AS MANY OF THE WORLD WOULD LIKE TO PORTRAY IT, AS A SOLO INTERVENTION, AS U.S. HEGEMONY BEING EXERTED, OR US BEHAVING AS A ROGUE STATE. WE'RE NOT. WE'VE PUT TOGETHER, CAREFULLY, A COALITION.

Borg: MR. QUINN, HE SUGGESTED, THOUGH, THAT WE'RE BUYING OUR FRIENDS AND TAKING THEM ALONG WITH US ALONG IN THIS COALITION. IS THAT THE WAY THAT WE HAVE TO DO IT? CAN WE NOT BE PERSUASIVE ENOUGH OR HAVE A MISSION THAT IS SO OVERWHELMING IN ITS IMPORTANCE THAT THE COALITION JOINS US?

Quinn: I THINK ALMOST EVERY COUNTRY, INCLUDING OUR OWN, ACTS OUT OF WHAT THEY PERCEIVE TO BE THEIR OWN INTERESTS. AND EACH COUNTRY MAKES A CALCULATION ABOUT WHAT THEY DO IN A CERTAIN SITUATION AND HOW IT AFFECTS THEM. FOR THOSE COUNTRIES THAT DON'T NECESSARILY PERCEIVE HAVING A VITAL INTEREST BUT ARE INTERESTED IN GOOD RELATIONS WITH THE UNITED STATES, HAVING SOME TYPE OF RECOMPENSE OR SOME TYPE OF OTHER ADVANTAGE HAS BEEN A TRADITIONAL PART OF THE UNITED STATES' RELATIONSHIPS. I MEAN WE HAVE BASING RIGHTS AROUND THE WORLD FOR YEARS AND YEARS WHERE -- WHICH HAVE BEEN LINKED, IN ONE WAY OR ANOTHER, TO PAYMENTS OF LARGE AMOUNTS OF MONEY. THE SAME WITH PEACE IN THE MIDDLE EAST. WE GIVE A LARGE AMOUNT OF MONEY TO EGYPT EACH YEAR, BUT IT'S BASED ON THAT PERCEPTION THAT IT GETS YOU A GREATER END. SO WE SHOULDN'T BE SURPRISED.

Borg: MR. MENZIES, IS THERE A DIFFERENCE BETWEEN WHAT HAPPENED IN OUR INTERVENTION IN BOSNIA-HERZEGOVINA AND IRAQ?

Menzies: YES, I THINK THERE'S A MATERIAL DIFFERENCE, AND THE MATERIAL DIFFERENCE IN THIS INSTANCE IS CLEARLY GENOCIDE. IN BOSNIA, WE SAW ACTS OF GENOCIDE. THEY WERE CHARACTERIZED AT THE TIME AS ACTS TANTAMOUNT TO GENOCIDE. THERE'S NO DISTINCTION THERE. THERE WERE ACTS OF GENOCIDE. WE DON'T SEE THE SAME SORT OF GENOCIDE THAT'S TAKING PLACE HERE, SO A DIFFERENT SET OF PRINCIPLES HAVE TO BE INVOKED. AND I DIDN'T MEAN TO SUGGEST THAT THERE IS A COALITION OF THE BILLING; IT'S JUST HOW I'VE SEEN IT CHARACTERIZED. I DO BELIEVE THAT MANY NATIONS FEEL THAT THIS REALLY IS OF INTERNATIONAL CONCERN. AND AFTER SEPTEMBER 11, WE THINK OF THE 80 NATIONS OR SO WHO LOST PEOPLE ON THAT DATE. THERE ARE NATIONS WHO HAVE A VESTED INTEREST AND A COMPELLING INTEREST TO RESIST TERRORISM AND THOSE WHO WOULD USE FORCE INDISCRIMINATELY AGAINST CIVILIANS. SO I DO BELIEVE THAT MANY PEOPLE ARE PERSUADED BY THAT ARGUMENT AND SHOULD BE.

Henderson: YOU TWO FELLOWS, BECAUSE YOU'VE BEEN IN THE FOREIGN SERVICE FOR A CAREER, HAVE A PERSPECTIVE THAT THE NORMAL IOWAN DOESN'T. YOU MAY KNOW A LITTLE BIT MORE ABOUT THE UNITED NATIONS THAN I DO. MR. QUINN, TELL US ABOUT THE MACHINATION OF THE UNITED NATIONS AND THE IDEA THAT THE SECURITY COUNCIL IS SORT OF DEADLOCKED ON THIS ISSUE AND MAY NEVER PASS ANOTHER RESOLUTION AUTHORIZING WAR.

Quinn: WELL, I THINK THE FIRST THING TO THINK ABOUT THE UNITED NATIONS IS THE UNITED NATIONS IS VIEWED AS BEING EXTREMELY IMPORTANT, MORE IMPORTANT THAN IT'S VIEWED IN THE UNITED STATES AND EVERY OTHER COUNTRY IN THE WORLD. THEY SEE THE UNITED NATIONS AS A PLACE WHERE THEY HAVE STATURE AND WHERE THEY CAN BRING THEIR PROBLEMS AND WHERE THEY CAN COORDINATE HOW THE WORLD IS DEALT WITH. SO WHAT HAPPENS THERE IS IMPORTANT TO THEM, AND THEY TAKE IT SERIOUSLY. YOU GET INTO POLITICS IN THE SECURITY COUNCIL OR OTHER AGENCIES, IT CAN CAN BECOME JUST AS TRICKY AS AMERICAN CONGRESSIONAL POLITICS, IF NOT MORE SO. AND WHAT YOU SEE ARE BEING PLAYED OUT PROBABLY REVERBERATIONS FROM THE LAST TWENTY OR THIRTY YEARS. YOU HAVE ATTITUDES IN COUNTRIES AND EUROPE THAT HAVE FELT THAT THEY'VE SUFFERED IN OUR SHADOW. YOU HAVE SMALLER COUNTRIES THAT FEEL THEY'VE BEEN PUSHED AROUND BY THE UNITED STATES, WHERE OUR AID LEVELS HAVE GONE DOWN CONSISTENTLY OVER THE LAST TWENTY YEARS. SO THERE'S A LOT OF RESENTMENT TOWARD THE UNITED STATES OUT THERE AROUND THE WORLD, AND YOU SEE THAT COMING IN AS WELL.

Henderson: MR. MENZIES, THERE HAVE BEEN SOME WHO'VE SUGGESTED THAT THIS IS A POINT AT WHICH THE UNITED NATIONS CAN DETERMINE ITS RELEVANCE IN FUTURE CONFLICTS. DO YOU SHARE THAT VIEW?

Menzies: I THINK THAT IT'S ALWAYS A QUESTION OF THE RELEVANCE OF THE U.N. I'M A REAL BELIEVER IN THE U.N., BUT EVERY TIME IT FACES A CRISIS, IT HAS TO MAKE DECISIONS AND IT WILL BE JUDGED ON THE BASIS OF THE OUTCOMES. I THINK IT DID A WONDERFUL JOB IN EAST TIMOR, LESS WELL IN BOSNIA, VERY WELL IN KOSOVO, AND IT WILL BE JUDGED BY WHAT IT DOES NOW. DO WE NEED ANOTHER RESOLUTION? I'M NOT PERSUADED THAT WE DO, BUT I SUPPORT THE EFFORT TO GET ONE IF IT HELPS US MOVE THE BALL FORWARD, IF IT HELPS US MOVE TOWARD A RESOLUTION THAT WILL BE OF BENEFIT TO THE PEOPLE OF IRAQ TOO. SO I THINK THE U.N. RETAINS ITS VITAL ROLE IN OUR FOREIGN POLICY. IT'S VERY IMPORTANT TO US. IT'S IMPORTANT TO OTHER NATIONS, AND WE NEEDED SUPPORT. MORE RESOLUTIONS, I'M NOT SURE ABOUT.

Yepsen: MR. MENZIES, A LOT OF AMERICANS ARE BAFFLED BY THE FRENCH. CAN YOU EXPLAIN TO IOWANS WHAT THE FRENCH ARE DOING HERE IN THIS WHOLE CRISIS?

Menzies: WELL, FIRST OF ALL, LET ME JUST SAY THAT FRENCH BASHING HAS BECOME A MEDAL SPORT AMONG DIPLOMATS, AND I REALLY DON'T WANT TO ENGAGE IN IT. I THINK THAT THE FRENCH PURSUE NATIONAL INTEREST IN FOREIGN POLICY FROM A MORE RESTRICTIVE VIEW THAN THE UNITED STATES. AS I SAID EARLIER, WE'RE GOING TO BE DOING THIS BECAUSE -- I THINK WE'RE DOING IT BECAUSE WE PERCEIVE IT AS THE RIGHT THING TO DO. THE FRENCH WILL ASK MUCH MORE NARROW QUESTIONS ABOUT THEIR SPECIFIC NATIONAL INTERESTS. SOME WOULD SAY ECONOMIC INTERESTS OR THINGS LIKE THAT. AND AGAIN, I DON'T WANT TO ENGAGE IN THAT SORT OF SPECULATION. I DON'T UNDERSTAND THE BEHAVIOR RIGHT NOW AND DISAGREE WITH IT HEARTILY, BUT THE FRENCH ARE OUR ALLIES. WE'VE STOOD BY THEM. THEY'VE STOOD BY US. I HOPE WHEN IT COMES RIGHT DOWN TO THE CRUNCH, THEY'LL BE WITH US AGAIN. AND WE NEED THEIR HELP. WE WOULD APPRECIATE IT.

Yepsen: MR. QUINN, WHAT DO YOU MAKE OF THE FRENCH? THERE ARE A LOT OF IOWA VETERANS WHO WENT OVER THERE. WE'VE HAD -- MY GRANDFATHER WENT IN ONE WAR. MY FATHER WENT IN THE OTHER ONE. AND NOW THIS IS WHAT WE GET BACK FROM THE FRENCH IN RETURN. WHAT DO YOU MAKE OF IT?

Quinn: THERE'S A NEW GENERATION IN ALL OF THESE COUNTRIES IN EUROPE. THEY DON'T REMEMBER WORLD WAR II. THEY HAVEN'T LIVED THROUGH THOSE EXPERIENCES. THEY HAVE A DIFFERENT VIEW AND A DIFFERENT ATTITUDE TOWARD THE UNITED STATES. AS FAR AS I CAN SEE, WHILE I'M NOT A GREAT FAN OF THE WAY THE FRENCH HAVE BEEN DEALING WITH US, IT APPEARS THAT THEIR POLICY REFLECTS THE MAJORITY VIEW OF THE PEOPLE IN THEIR COUNTRY. THEY'RE A DEMOCRACY. THAT'S WHAT DEMOCRACIES ARE SUPPOSED TO BE ABOUT. I'LL JUST SAY THIS: WHEN AMERICAN CITIZENS ARE AT RISK OVERSEAS AND WE'RE OUT THERE AND THERE'S VIOLENCE AND YOU NEED HELP AND YOU GO TO THE FRENCH, THE FRENCH ARE ALWAYS THERE TO HELP US. I REMEMBER THAT.

Yepsen: MR. QUINN, ISN'T DEALING WITH THE PROBLEM OF IRAQ REALLY THE JOB OF THE WORLD'S ONLY SUPERPOWER? DOESN'T THIS TASK JUST SORT OF NATURALLY FALL ON AMERICAN SHOULDERS BECAUSE NOBODY ELSE, INCLUDING THE FRENCH, ARE IN A POSITION TO DEAL WITH IT?

Quinn: I THINK THAT'S A REASONABLE WAY TO LOOK AT IT. AND I THINK THAT WE SHOULD ALWAYS BE ACTING IN WHAT WE PERCEIVE TO BE OUR NATIONAL INTERESTS. THE QUESTION ABOUT IRAQ IS IF WE GO IN THERE AND WE DO THIS WITHOUT A U.N. RESOLUTION, WHAT'S GOING TO BE THE REACTION IN OTHER COUNTRIES, IN OTHER PLACES, AGAINST AMERICANS, AGAINST AMERICAN BUSINESSES? IS THERE GOING TO BE ACCEPTANCE, OR IS THERE GOING TO BE VIOLENCE PERPETRATED AND CALLED FOR, AS OSAMA BIN LADEN HAS CALLED FOR? THAT'S THE BIG QUESTION. I DON'T SEE IT DISCUSSED MUCH EITHER BY PEOPLE IN OUR GOVERNMENT OR IN THE MEDIA. BUT TO ME, IT'S THE CRUCIAL QUESTION.

Yepsen: MR. MENZIES, THE SAME QUESTION. ARE WE THE WORLD'S COP? DOESN'T THIS FALL TO US?

Menzies: NOT NECESSARILY. OTHER NATIONS LEAD WHEN IT'S IN THEIR INTEREST, WHEN THEY HAVE A COMPELLING INTEREST IN A REGION. I THINK OF THE TREMENDOUSLY CONSTRUCTIVE ROLE THAT AUSTRALIA PLAYED IN EAST TIMOR; THAT WAS PERFECT. BUT THERE ARE TIMES WHEN THE UNITED STATES MUST LEAD BECAUSE OTHERS ARE UNWILLING OR UNABLE. BOSNIA WAS SUCH A CASE. BUT WE FIND OTHERS ARE WILLING TO JOIN US. WE NEED THE SUPPORT OF OTHER NATIONS, AND I'VE BEEN GRATIFIED BY THE NEW EUROPE RESPONSE, THE RESPONSE OF THE NEW MEMBERS OF NATO IN SUPPORTING OUR POSITION ON IRAQ. THEY'VE BEEN WITH US IN KOSOVO AS WELL AND IN BOSNIA.

Henderson: I SAT IN THE IOWA SENATE THIS WEEK AS SENATORS DISCUSSED THE PROSPECT OF WAR WITH IRAQ. ONE OF THE THINGS THAT WAS WONDERED ALOUD ABOUT WAS THE IDEA THAT NORTH KOREA IS ACTUALLY SHOOTING OFF AND TESTING WEAPONS BUT WE'RE NOT THREATENING TO CROSS THE PARALLEL AND INVADE NORTH KOREA. HOW DO YOU GUYS VIEW THAT? MR. QUINN, IS THERE A LITTLE PROBLEM HERE IN U.S. POLICY THAT WE'RE THREATENING IRAQ WITH MILITARY ACTION, WHEREBY WE'RE NOT IN NORTH KOREA'S CASE?

Quinn: NORTH KOREA IS THE MOST DANGEROUS PLACE IN THE WORLD TODAY, WITHOUT DOUBT. THERE'S A POSSIBILITY OF REAL ENGAGEMENT, THE FIRING OF REALLY POWERFUL WEAPONS. THE NORTH KOREANS APPARENTLY, YOU CAN ARGUE WHETHER RIGHTLY OR WRONGLY, PERCEIVE THAT THEY'RE NEXT ON THE LIST, AND THEY SEEM TO LISTEN VERY CAREFULLY TO WHAT IS SAID. AND AFTER IRAQ IS FINISHED, I THINK THEY BELIEVE THAT THEY'RE COMING. AND THEY'RE NOT IRAQ AND THEY'RE NOT GOING TO WAIT. THE U.S. MILITARY HEADQUARTERS IS IN THE MIDDLE OF SEOUL. WHAT IS IT, 8, 10 MILLION PEOPLE 35 MILES FROM THE DMZ? AND IT WILL BE A TARGET. AND IF THERE IS SOME PREEMPTIVE ACTION BY THE NORTH KOREANS, THAT COULD SET OFF A CONFLAGRATION BEYOND THAT WHICH ANYBODY WOULD WANT TO THINK ABOUT.

Henderson: MR. MENZIES, DO YOU AGREE WITH THAT VIEW?

Menzies: I AGREE THAT IT'S PROBABLY THE MOST DANGEROUS PLACE ON EARTH. I THINK WE MUST HAVE A VERY NUANCED AND VERY CAREFUL POLICY TOWARD NORTH KOREA RIGHT AT THIS MOMENT ESPECIALLY. WE'RE ADDRESSING ANOTHER ISSUE. OUR FOCUS IS THERE. WE ALSO HAVE TO BE COGNIZANT AT ALL TIMES OF THIS OTHER POTENTIAL THREAT. THIS IS A NATION THAT CANNOT FEED ITS OWN PEOPLE, NORTH KOREA. AND IT IS EXTRAORDINARILY POORLY LED, BUT UNPREDICTABLY LED, SO THAT I THINK WE HAVE TO BE VERY CAREFUL AND BALANCED IN OUR APPROACH RIGHT NOW.

Yepsen: MR. MENZIES, IT'S BEEN SAID THAT THE IRAQ BUSINESS WILL BE THE NATION'S FIRST PREEMPTIVE WAR. DO YOU AGREE WITH THAT?

Menzies: WELL, IT DEPENDS WHAT YOU MEAN "PREEMPTIVE." WE WENT IN A LITTLE OVER A DECADE AGO FOR A VERY GOOD CAUSE. WE KNOW THAT THERE HAVE BEEN CONSPIRACIES AGAINST INDIVIDUAL AMERICANS, IN FACT, BASED ON THESE FOLKS. THERE HAVE BEEN OTHER ACTIVITIES THAT THEY'VE BEEN ENGAGED IN THAT WE CANNOT CERTAINLY AGREE WITH AND SUPPORT. THEIR BEHAVIOR IS REPREHENSIBLE IN SO MANY WAYS. I LOOK AT THIS AS AN EXTENSION OF OUR EARLIER INVENTION -- INTERVENTION, SORRY. WE SHOULD HAVE PROBABLY FINISHED IT THEN.

Henderson: BUT AFTER 9/11, PRESIDENT BUSH SAID, YOU KNOW, "NO LONGER ARE WE GOING TO BE PLAY DEFENSE. WE'RE GOING TO PLAY OFFENSE IN THE WORLD. IF WE THINK SOMEBODY IS GOING TO COME AND ATTACK US, WE'RE GOING TO GET YOU FIRST." MR. QUINN, IS THAT THE RIGHT ROLE FOR THE AMERICAN FOREIGN POLICY?

Quinn: IT IS CERTAINLY THE ROLE THAT WE HAD WHEN I WAS AMBASSADOR IN CAMBODIA, THAT WE WERE LOOKING TO IDENTIFY AND PREEMPT AND STOP AL QUAEDA TERRORISTS WHO HAD MY EMBASSY TARGETED. AND WE DID A LOT OF THINGS. MANY OF THEM WOULD NOT BE NECESSARILY SEEN BY THE PUBLIC, BUT WE WERE DOING THAT. AND IF WE COULD HAVE FOUND WHERE THERE WAS AN AL QUAEDA POCKET OF PEOPLE WHO WERE PLANNING TO ATTACK US, WE WOULD HAVE BEEN WITH THE GOVERNMENT AND SAID, "LET'S GO GET THEM AND LET'S STOP THEM."

Borg: THIS IS "IOWA PRESS" ON IOWA PUBLIC TELEVISION. OUR GUESTS TODAY ARE FORMER AMBASSADOR TO BOSNIA-HERZEGOVINA JOHN MENZIES. HE'S NOW THE PRESIDENT OF GRACELAND UNIVERSITY IN LAMONI, IOWA. AND KEN QUINN IS A FORMER AMBASSADOR TO CAMBODIA. WHEN WAS THAT, MR. QUINN?

Quinn: '96 TO '99.

Borg: AND NOW YOU'RE THE PRESIDENT OF THE WORLD FOOD PRIZE FOUNDATION. I WANT TO GET BACK TO THIS BUSINESS OF WE WERE ATTACKED FIRST -- TERRORISM -- AND THE JOB THAT YOU HAVE SEEN FROM YOUR EXPERIENCE IN BOSNIA-HERZEGOVINA AND ALSO IN CAMBODIA. NOW THAT WE HAVE THE ELEMENT OF ONE INDIVIDUAL OR A GROUP OF INDIVIDUALS AS A THREAT, IS IT POSSIBLE -- AND YOU'VE ALREADY AGREED THAT WE HAVE TO PLAY A ROLE. WE CAN'T RETREAT TO OUR OWN BORDERS HERE. IS IT POSSIBLE, FROM YOUR EXPERIENCES IN THE FOREIGN NATIONS, TO PROTECT ASSETS AND THE PEOPLE WHO HAVE TO BE THERE? MR. MENZIES?

Menzies: YOU CAN'T DO IT ABSOLUTELY. YOU DO THE BEST JOB YOU CAN. YOU DEVELOP THE RESOURCES THAT ARE NECESSARY ON THE GROUND TO HAVE A GOOD INFORMATION FLOW. YOU RELY ON ALL OF THE AGENCIES OF THE GOVERNMENT THAT CAN PROVIDE INFORMATION AND ANALYSIS AND UNDERSTANDINGS OF WHAT'S GOING ON ON THE GROUND, THE DYNAMICS OF THIS SOCIETY, AND INFORMATION ON SPECIFIC THREATS. YOU DO THE BEST JOB YOU CAN, BUT THERE ARE NO GUARANTEES. AND YOU CAN ALWAYS BE HIT BY RANDOM VIOLENCE.

Borg: MR. QUINN?

Quinn: WE CAN BUT WE HAVE SYSTEMATICALLY, AS A COUNTRY OVER THE LAST SEVERAL DECADES, DEGRADED AND WEAKENED THE SERVICES AND INSTITUTIONS WE HAVE OUT THERE TO PROTECT OURSELVES. WE DO NOT HAVE THE PEOPLE WHO WE HAD WHEN I STARTED IN THE FOREIGN SERVICE OUT IN REMOTE AREAS GATHERING INFORMATION SO THAT WE CAN KNOW IN ADVANCE AND WE CAN PREDICT. IT WAS A STATE DEPARTMENT OFFICER WHO, ELEVEN MONTHS BEFORE PEARL HARBOR WAS ATTACKED, SENT A CABLE TO WASHINGTON SAYING THE JAPANESE PLAN IS TO ATTACK PEARL HARBOR. HE DIDN'T HAVE THE EXACT DAY. MY FIRST JOB WAS ON A BORDER IN CAMBODIA AND VIETNAM WHERE I PICKED UP INFORMATION ABOUT THE KHMER ROUGE AND THE TERRORISM AND THE GENOCIDAL TERRORISM THAT THEY WOULD HAVE. WE DON'T HAVE PEOPLE LIKE THAT ANYMORE.

Borg: BUT HAVE THOSE PEOPLE BEEN REPLACED BY TECHNOLOGY, SATELLITES?

Quinn: IT DOESN'T WORK.

Yepsen: MR. MENZIES, TALK TO IOWANS A LITTLE BIT. HOW SHOULD IOWANS START THINKING DIFFERENTLY ABOUT THE WORLD? YOU'VE HAD A CHANCE NOW FOR A FEW MONTHS TO GET A LOOK AT IOWANS AND HOW WE VIEW THINGS. WE'VE GOT A LOT OF PEOPLE HERE IN THIS STATE WHO SEEM TO ME TO TAKE THE ATTITUDE, YOU KNOW: LEAVE US ALONE; WE'RE HERE IN THE MIDDLE OF THE COUNTRY; WE CAME HERE TO GET AWAY FROM WARS. A LITTLE BIT OF PASSIVISM, A LITTLE BIT OF ISOLATIONISM, IF YOU WILL. HOW DO YOU WANT IOWANS TO START VIEWING THE WORLD DIFFERENTLY IN THE FUTURE?

Menzies: WELL, I THINK IOWANS HAVE A PRETTY GOOD SENSE OF WHAT'S RIGHT AND WRONG. AND I'VE BEEN TERRIBLY IMPRESSED BY THE FACT THAT IOWA HAS OPENED ITS BORDERS AND ITS HEARTS TO SO MANY REFUGEES FROM OTHER PARTS OF THE WORLD. FROM SOME OF THE CONFLICTS I'VE SEEN, PARTICULARLY BOSNIANS HAVE SHOWN UP IN IOWA IN LARGE NUMBERS. AND I COMMEND THE PEOPLE FOR THAT. I THINK IF IOWANS FEEL THAT THEY HAVE A STAKE IN WHAT'S GOING ON ANYWHERE, THEY'LL INFORM THEMSELVES OR DEMAND THE INFORMATION THAT'S REQUISITE TO TRULY UNDERSTAND WHAT'S GOING ON. I THINK THAT THERE'S AN INHERENT CURIOSITY AMONG THE PEOPLE TO KNOW WHAT THE REAL ARGUMENTS ARE AND TO NOT BE SATISFIED WITH THE SHIBBOLETH, THE REPEATED PHRASES: NO BLOOD FOR OIL. THERE ARE NO DATA POINTS THAT SUPPORT THAT IDEA, AND I THINK THE PEOPLE OF IOWA ARE WAY TOO SHARP TO FALL FOR THAT KIND ROTE RATIONALIZATION, IF YOU LIKE. I JUST ENCOURAGE THEM TO STAY ENGAGED. REMEMBER THAT MANY OF YOUR NEIGHBORS HAVE COME FROM PLACES THAT HAVE SUFFERED GREATLY. THE PEOPLE FROM BOSNIA THAT ARE AROUND YOU HAVE A STORY TO TELL, AND THEY SHOULD LISTEN TO UNDERSTAND THE WORLD.

Yepsen: THE SAME QUESTION: HOW DO YOU WANT IOWANS TO BEHAVE?

Quinn: I THINK THERE CAN BE A TENDENCY NOW TO SAY: WELL, WE'RE KIND OF SAFE HERE; WE OUGHT TO DRAW BACK AND PULL UP THE BRIDGES; WE'LL BE SAFE HERE; WE DON'T HAVE TO WORRY ABOUT IT. BUT IN TRUTH, THE STRONGEST WEAPON AMERICA HAS TO MAKE US SAFE IN THE FUTURE IS OUR STATE, STATES LIKE OURS, INSTITUTIONS LIKE THE WONDERFUL COLLEGE THAT AMBASSADOR MENZIES IS PRESIDENT OF. AND WE SHOULD BE BRINGING PEOPLE FROM THESE COUNTRIES, FROM THE MIDDLE EAST, FROM EASTERN EUROPE, FROM COUNTRIES THAT ARE STRUGGLING TO BE DEMOCRACY, BECAUSE MORE DEMOCRACIES WILL BE FORMED BY BRINGING PEOPLE TO HAVE -- SHARE THE AMERICAN EXPERIENCE THAN EVER WILL BE FORMED BY OUR TROOPS GOING INTO ANOTHER COUNTRY.

Yepsen: MR. QUINN, MANY OF US HAVE SEEN THESE TELEVISION IMAGES OF PEOPLE DEMONSTRATING AGAINST THE U.S., BURNING THE AMERICAN FLAG RIGHT NOW. IS IT YOUR SENSE THAT AMERICANS ARE HATED? IF SO, WHY? WHAT DO WE DO ABOUT IT?

Quinn: I WOULDN'T USE HATED BUT I THINK THERE HAS BEEN AN ENORMOUS CHANGE FROM WHEN I STARTED IN THE FOREIGN SERVICE. WE WOULD GO AROUND THE WORLD AND BE RECEIVED WITH ENORMOUS FRIENDSHIP, AND OUR COUNTRY WAS SO ADMIRED AND SO RESPECTED. AND THERE ARE MANY PLACES IN THE WORLD WHERE YOU GO AND WE'RE -- I'M DISTRESSED TO FIND THAT THERE'S BROAD-SPREAD ANTAGONISM TOWARDS US.

Borg: WHAT DO WE DO ABOUT IT? WHAT WENT WRONG?

Quinn: I THINK ONE PART, THAT WE ARE SO BIG THAT PEOPLE KIND OF VIEW US AS THE BIG, RICH BANK OR BUSINESS. ONE PART, THAT THERE CAME TO HAVE A CERTAIN ARROGANCE TO HOW WE DEALT WITH CERTAIN COUNTRIES. AND ANOTHER WAS THAT FOREIGN AFFAIRS BECAME DOMESTIC POLITICS IN THE UNITED STATES, PARTICULARLY BEGINNING IN THE 1980S, AND THAT IT WAS MEASURED IN TERMS OF DOMESTIC PAYOFFS IN THE UNITED STATES.

Yepsen: MR. MENZIES, THE SAME QUESTION. ARE WE DISLIKED AND HATED? WHAT DO WE DO ABOUT IT?

Menzies: YOU NEED TO UNDERSTAND THE FEELING OF PEOPLE LIVING IN KOSOVO, FOR EXAMPLE, WHERE THE UNITED STATES IS TRULY LOVED. THEY WOULD OPT TO BECOME A STATE OF THE U.S. IF THEY HAD THEIR CHOICE. THE THING IS MANY OF OUR FRIENDS, ESPECIALLY IN EASTERN EUROPE AND IN PLACES WHERE WE HAVE INTERVENED, SUCH AS BOSNIA AND KOSOVO, KNOW WHO WE ARE. THEY KNOW WHAT WE STAND FOR, THE VALUES WHICH WE REPRESENT, AND HAVE NOT FORGOTTEN THAT, HAVE NOT FORGOTTEN THAT WE STOOD BY THEM THROUGH THE COLD WAR IN EASTERN EUROPE AND IN KOSOVO AND SARAJEVO. THEY KNOW WHAT WE'VE DONE FOR THEM, AND THEY REMEMBER THAT. THEY LOVE US. THE NUMBERS OF PEOPLE DEMONSTRATING IN THE REST OF EUROPE DON'T REFLECT EVERYBODY. THERE IS A SUBSTANTIAL BODY OF THOUGHT THAT RESENTS US, AS KEN HAS VERY WELL OUTLINED. BUT PEOPLE STILL DO, AT MANY LEVELS, REMEMBER US AND AGREE WITH US.

Henderson: ONE OF THE THINGS THAT WE'RE GOING TO ENGAGE IN IN IRAQ, IF THE PRESIDENT'S WAR AMES ARE MET, IS NATION BUILDING. AND THEY DID A LITTLE BIT OF THAT IN KOSOVO. IS THE U.S. ABLE TO DO THAT IN A COUNTRY WHICH HAS A PREDOMINANT MUSLIM POPULATION?

Menzies: WE'RE EXTREMELY GOOD AT THIS. REMEMBER THAT THE LAST THREE TIMES WE'VE INTERVENED MILITARILY HAVE BEEN ON BEHALF OF MUSLIM PEOPLES. IN BOSNIA, IT WAS A MUSLIM -- THE MUSLIM BOSNIACS WHO WERE BEING SUBJECT TO GENOCIDE. IN KOSOVO, THREE-FOURTHS OF THE PEOPLE WERE DRIVEN OUT, THE MUSLIMS, THE MUSLIM ALBANIAN POPULATION AND IN IRAQ ITSELF EARLIER. I BELIEVE THAT WE CAN INDEED SPEAK TO A MUSLIM POPULATION. LOOK AT WHAT WE'VE DONE. TO US IT'S NOT A MATTER OF RELIGION; IT'S A MATTER OF DOING THE RIGHT THING: STOPPING GENOCIDE, BRINGING LIBERATION, BRINGING HOPE FOR A BETTER WORLD.

Yepsen: HOW DO YOU -- WHAT DO YOU THINK OF THAT QUESTION, MR. QUINN? I MEAN WE DIDN'T HAVE SUCH GOOD LUCK IN SOUTHEAST ASIA WITH NATION BUILDING, DID WE?

Quinn: WE'RE GOOD AT SOME THINGS. I'M A BIG PROPONENT OF WHEREVER YOU GO YOU BUILD ROADS. YOU DESTROY TERRORIST ORGANIZATIONS WITH ROADS. AND WE DESTROYED THE KHMER ROUGE OF CAMBODIA WITH ROADS, AND YOU CAN DO THAT IN PLACES LIKE AFGHANISTAN. I'VE NOT BEEN TO IRAQ SO I'M A LITTLE HESITANT ABOUT THAT. BUT I THINK IF YOU GO AND STAY TOO LONG AT ANY PLACE, THE LONGER YOU'RE THERE, THE LESS YOU'RE LIKED. MAYBE KOSOVO IS DIFFERENT FOR -- BUT I'D WORRY ABOUT THAT IN IRAQ.

Yepsen: WE'VE GOT THIRTY SECONDS LEFT. FIFTEEN SECONDS TO EACH OF YOU. WHAT ARE YOU DOING AT THE WORLD FOOD PRIZE? WHAT ARE YOU DOING AT GRACELAND UNIVERSITY? DR. QUINN?

Quinn: BUILDING THE NOBEL PRIZE FOR FOOD AND AGRICULTURE AND GOING TO MAKE DES MOINES AND IOWA THE CENTER OF THE WORLD EVERY OCTOBER 16 AND 17 ON WORLD FOOD DAY.

Yepsen: MR. MENZIES?

Menzies: WE'VE GOT NINE KOSOVORS. WE'RE GOING TO BRING MORE NOT JUST FROM THERE BUT FROM ALL OVER THE GLOBE. WE WANT THE WORLD TO COME TO IOWA.

Borg: GENTLEMEN, THANK YOU VERY MUCH FOR SHARING YOUR VIEWS WITH US TODAY. THANK YOU. ON OUR NEXT EDITION OF "IOWA PRESS," WE'LL TAKE ON CAMPAIGN POLITICS, SPECIFICALLY PRESIDENTIAL POLITICS. JOINING US: FORMER VERMONT GOVERNOR HOWARD DEAN. HE'S SEEKING THE DEMOCRATIC PRESIDENTIAL NOMINATION FOR 2004. GOVERNOR DEAN ON "IOWA PRESS" AT 6:30 NEXT FRIDAY. AND THAT'S IT FOR THIS WEEK'S EDITION OF "IOWA PRESS." I'M DEAN BORG. THANKS FOR JOINING US TODAY.

FUNDING FOR THIS PROGRAM WAS PROVIDED BY "FRIENDS," THE IOWA PUBLIC TELEVISION FOUNDATION... GENERATIONS OF FAMILIES AND FRIENDS WHO FEEL PASSIONATE ABOUT THE PROGRAMS THEY WATCH ON IOWA PUBLIC TELEVISION. AND BY THE IOWA BANKERS ASSOCIATION... FOR PERSONAL, BUSINESS, AND COMMERCIAL NEEDS, IOWA BANKS HELP IOWANS REACH THEIR FINANCIAL GOALS; AND BY THE ASSOCIATED GENERAL CONTRACTORS OF IOWA... THE PUBLIC'S PARTNER IN BUILDING IOWA'S HIGHWAY, BRIDGE, AND MUNICIPAL UTILITY INFRASTRUCTURE.