Iowa Public Television

Borg: RAMPING UP TO JANUARY'S FIRST-IN-THE-NATION PRESIDENTIAL PREFERENCE CAUCUS, IOWA DEMOCRATS ARE EVALUATING THE CANDIDATES. INSIGHT INTO THE CAMPAIGN OF FORMER VERMONT GOVERNOR HOWARD DEAN ON THIS EDITION OF "IOWA PRESS."

FUNDING FOR THIS PROGRAM WAS PROVIDED BY "FRIENDS," THE IOWA PUBLIC TELEVISION FOUNDATION... GENERATIONS OF FAMILIES AND FRIENDS WHO FEEL PASSIONATE ABOUT THE PROGRAMS THEY WATCH ON IOWA PUBLIC TELEVISION;

AND BY THE IOWA BANKERS ASSOCIATION... FOR PERSONAL, BUSINESS, AND COMMERCIAL NEEDS, IOWA BANKS HELP IOWANS REACH THEIR FINANCIAL GOALS; AND BY THE ASSOCIATED GENERAL CONTRACTORS OF IOWA... THE PUBLIC'S PARTNER IN BUILDING IOWA'S HIGHWAY, BRIDGE, AND MUNICIPAL UTILITY INFRASTRUCTURE.

ON STATEWIDE IOWA PUBLIC TELEVISION, THIS IS THE FRIDAY, JULY 18 EDITION OF "IOWA PRESS." HERE IS DEAN BORG.

Borg: OUT ON THE CAMPAIGN TRAIL, THERE ARE TWO EMERGING STORY LINES DURING THIS SUMMER PRESIDENTIAL CAMPAIGN. THE FIRST IS PRESIDENT GEORGE W. BUSH'S RECORD-SETTING CAMPAIGN FUND-RAISING AND THE SECOND IS HOWARD DEAN'S BREAKTHROUGH AS A FIRST-TIER DEMOCRATIC PRESIDENTIAL CONTENDER. DEAN EMERGED FROM THE CROWDED DEMOCRATIC CANDIDATE FIELD WITH UNWAVERING OPPOSITION TO THE U.S. INVASION OF IRAQ. HIS MOMENTUM HAS OVERCOME OBSTACLES OF NAME RECOGNITION AND CAMPAIGN CASH. GOVERNOR DEAN, WELCOME BACK TO "IOWA PRESS."

Dean: THANK YOU VERY MUCH, DEAN. I APPRECIATE IT.

Borg: AND ACROSS THE TABLE, TWO MEN WHO FOLLOW YOU ON THAT CAMPAIGN TRAIL: "DES MOINES REGISTER" POLITICAL COLUMNIST DAVID YEPSEN AND "ASSOCIATED PRESS" SENIOR POLITICAL REPORTER MIKE GLOVER.

Glover: GOVERNOR DEAN, THERE'S A NEW ARGUMENT EMERGING IN WASHINGTON ABOUT THE WAR ON IRAQ. BRITAIN'S TONY BLAIR WAS JUST IN WASHINGTON, AND HE MADE THE CASE THAT EVEN IF WE DON'T FIND WEAPONS OF MASS DESTRUCTION, EVEN IF SOME OF THE OTHER CLAIMS DON'T PAN OUT, IT WAS THE RIGHT THING TO DO; SADDAM HUSSEIN WAS A BAD GUY, AND WE WERE JUSTIFIED IN TAKING HIM OUT. HOW DO YOU RESPOND TO THAT?

Dean: THERE'S A FUNDAMENTAL DIFFERENCE OF OPINION HERE. I THINK IT IS NOT THE RIGHT THING TO DO IF YOU MISLEAD PEOPLE IN ORDER TO GET THEM TO DO IT, NO MATTER WHAT THE OUTCOME IS. THAT'S LIKE SAYING, WELL, THE END JUSTIFIES THE MEANS NO MATTER WHAT IT IS, AND I TOTALLY DISAGREE WITH THAT. YES, SADDAM WAS A DREADFUL PERSON. THERE ARE PROBABLY 20 OTHER DREADFUL PEOPLE RUNNING COUNTRIES AROUND THE WORLD. WE CAN'T TAKE OUT EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THEM. WE'RE SPENDING $5 BILLION A WEEK BETWEEN AFGHANISTAN, WHICH I SUPPORTED, AND IRAQ. FOUR BILLION OF THAT IS IN IRAQ. I DON'T THINK IT'S OKAY TO MISLEAD THE AMERICAN PEOPLE, WHETHER IT'S DELIBERATE OR INADVERTENT.

Glover: WHAT DO YOU SAY TO THOSE WHO CLAIM THAT THEY WILL EVENTUALLY WIN THIS POLITICAL ARGUMENT BECAUSE POLLS SHOW THAT MOST PEOPLE SUPPORT THAT?

Dean: YOU CAN'T DO THIS GUIDED BY POLLS. YOU JUST CAN'T MAKE FOREIGN OR DOMESTIC POLICY GUIDED BY POLLS. YOU'VE GOT TO DO WHAT YOU THINK IS RIGHT. AND I THOUGHT IT WAS FUNDAMENTALLY WRONG FOR THE PRESIDENT TO MISLEAD THE PUBLIC ON THE IRANIAN BUSINESS. I THOUGHT IT WAS WRONG FOR THE SECRETARY OF STATE TO MISLEAD US ON WHERE HE -- CLAIMING HE KNEW WHERE THE WEAPONS OF MASS DESTRUCTION WERE. I THOUGHT IT WAS FUNDAMENTALLY WRONG FOR THE VICE PRESIDENT TO DECLARE THAT THEY HAVE INCONTROVERTIBLE EVIDENCE THAT THERE WAS A NUCLEAR PROGRAM GOING ON. THESE THINGS ALL ADD UP. I'M SURE IT WAS A TERRIFIC THING TO GET RID OF SADDAM HUSSEIN. BUT THE FACT IS IF WE WENT THERE UNDER FALSE PRETENSES, AMERICAN SOLDIERS DIED BECAUSE WE WEREN'T GIVEN THE RIGHT INFORMATION AND OUR CONGRESS VOTED TO GIVE THE PRESIDENT AUTHORITY TO GO TO IRAQ WITHOUT KNOWING THE FACTS, AND THAT'S WRONG.

Yepsen: GOVERNOR, WE ARE WHERE WE ARE IN IRAQ. WHERE DO WE GO FROM HERE? WHAT WOULD PRESIDENT HOWARD DEAN'S EXIT STRATEGY BE?

Dean: LET'S JUST SUPPOSE I WAS PRESIDENT TOMORROW, WHICH ISN'T GOING TO HAPPEN. AND THIS IS THE KIND OF HYPOTHETICAL QUESTION I ALWAYS TRY TO AVOID ON THE CAMPAIGN TRAIL BECAUSE IT ALWAYS GETS YOU INTO TROUBLE, BUT IT'S A FAIR QUESTION. IF AND WHEN I BECOME PRESIDENT, WHAT I WANT TO DO IS INTERNATIONALIZE THE OCCUPATION IMMEDIATELY. WE CAN'T WITHDRAW FROM IRAQ RIGHT NOW UNILATERALLY AND LEAVE THE IRAQI PEOPLE BECAUSE WHAT WILL HAPPEN IS ONE OF TWO THINGS: ONE, THERE WILL BE CHAOS; OR TWO, THERE WILL BE A FUNDAMENTALIST SHIITE REGIME. BOTH OF THOSE REALLY ARE MUCH MORE DANGEROUS THAN SADDAM EVER WAS TO THE UNITED STATES BECAUSE THE LIKELIHOOD IS THAT AL QAEDA WILL COME IN. SO WHAT I WOULD DO IS BRING IN THE UNITED NATIONS AS FAST AS POSSIBLE, BRING IN NATO. AND HOPEFULLY IN PART OF THE UNITED NATIONS' DELEGATION WOULD BE MUSLIM GROUPS, BECAUSE I THINK MUSLIM GROUPS WILL HAVE A BETTER OPPORTUNITY TO POLICE IRAQ, WHICH IS REALLY WHAT'S NEEDED RIGHT NOW.

Borg: WOULD THAT MEAN WITHDRAWING SOME OF THE U.S. FORCES THERE?

Dean: YES. I THINK WE NEED A CRITICAL NUMBER OF TROOPS, AND WE PROBABLY DON'T HAVE ENOUGH. ONE OF THE THINGS THAT I WAS SHOCKED BY WAS THE SECRETARY OF DEFENSE REFUSING TO LISTEN TO GENERAL SHINSEKI'S ADVICE. I THINK ONE OF THE HALLMARKS OF THIS ADMINISTRATION IS THEY DON'T CARE WHAT THE FACTS ARE, THEY DON'T CARE WHAT PEOPLE'S ADVICE IS, THEY JUST DO IT ANYWAY. WE CLEARLY NEEDED MORE TROOPS. WE WERE ADVISED OF THAT BEFOREHAND. THE ADMINISTRATION WOULD PAY NO ATTENTION. BUT NET, I'D LIKE TO REDUCE THE AMERICAN TROOPS THERE, PARTICULARLY BY BRINGING RESERVES HOME AS FAST AS WE CAN AND REPLACE THEM WITH NATO TROOPS, TROOPS FROM MUSLIM NATIONS, PERHAPS EGYPT, MOROCCO, PERHAPS MALAYSIA, AND THEN ADD SOME ADDITIONAL U.N. TROOPS FROM OTHER COUNTRIES.

Yepsen: BUT, GOVERNOR, DO YOU HAVE ANY INDICATION THAT THOSE COUNTRIES WANT TO DO THIS? I MEAN I'M UNDER THE IMPRESSION THAT MANY COUNTRIES ARE SAYING PRIVATELY TO THE UNITED STATES, NO, WE DON'T WANT TO SEND OUR GUYS IN THERE TO HAVE PEOPLE POTSHOTTING AT THEM.

Dean: I THINK PART OF THE PROBLEM IS THAT THE PRESIDENT ALIENATED SO MANY PEOPLE BECAUSE OF HIS HIGH-HANDED, ARROGANT WAY THAT HE WENT INTO IRAQ. AND SO IT'S VERY HARD TO GO TO THE FRENCH AND SAY WOULD YOU PLEASE HELP US SEND IN SOME TROOPS IF YOU'VE JUST ESSENTIALLY PUBLICLY SPAT ON THEM -- SPIT ON THEM ON THE WAY IN. AND SO THE PRESIDENT IS HAVING A DIFFICULT TIME GETTING OTHER TROOPS TO COME IN. I THINK THAT WILL CHANGE WHEN WE CHANGE PRESIDENTS.

Glover: YOU HAVE BEEN OPPOSED TO THE INVASION OF IRAQ. IF YOU BECOME PRESIDENT, WHAT WOULD THE HOWARD DEAN STANDARD BE FOR THE USE OF AMERICAN FORCES?

Dean: HERE'S WHEN YOU USE FORCE. ONE, WHEN WE'RE ATTACKED. I THOUGHT THE ATTACK ON IRAQ -- OUR ATTACK ON IRAQ WAS ABSOLUTELY JUSTIFIED AND I FULLY -- I MEAN EXCUSE ME, ON AFGHANISTAN. I THOUGHT OUR ATTACK ON AFGHANISTAN AFTER THEY KILLED 3,000 OF OUR PEOPLE WAS ABSOLUTELY AND COMPLETELY JUSTIFIED BECAUSE THEY HARBORED A GROUP OF PEOPLE WHO WERE TRYING TO DO IN AMERICA. SECONDLY, IF WE ARE IMMEDIATELY THREATENED -- THE PRESIDENT CLAIMED THAT WE WERE IMMEDIATELY THREATENED BY IRAQ. THERE WAS NO EVIDENCE OF THAT, AS WE'RE NOW FINDING OUT AND AS I SUSPECTED AT THE TIME, WHICH IS WHY I DIDN'T SUPPORT THE WAR. THIRDLY, IF ALL THE OTHER INTERNATIONAL ORGANIZATIONS WHICH ARE RESPONSIBLE SHIRK THEIR DUTY, THERE ARE SITUATIONS WHERE I WOULD SEND AMERICAN TROOPS TO STOP GENOCIDE. I SUPPORTED WHAT PRESIDENT CLINTON DID IN BOSNIA, IN KOSOVO. I WOULD SEND A SMALL DELEGATION OF AMERICAN TROOPS UNDER INTERNATIONAL -- AS PART OF AN INTERNATIONAL GROUP INTO LIBERIA BECAUSE THAT WILL STOP GENOCIDE. THERE WILL BE A STOPGAP AND THEN THE UNITED NATIONS WILL BE ABLE TO COME IN. I WOULD HAVE SENT TROOPS INTO IRAQ UNDER THE UNITED NATIONS BUT NOT UNILATERALLY.

Yepsen: WELL, HOW IS LIBERIA RELATED TO OUR NATIONAL SECURITY, GOVERNOR?

Dean: THERE ARE TWO ISSUES WITH LIBERIA. THE FIRST IS GENOCIDE. AND WE HAVE AN OBLIGATION TO TRY TO -- AS PART OF THE INTERNATIONAL FORCE TO STOP THAT. BUT THE SECOND IS LIBERIA IS THE TRADITIONAL SPHERE OF INFLUENCE IN AFRICA FOR THE UNITED STATES, GIVEN ITS HISTORY AS A COLONY FOUNDED BY -- OR A COUNTRY FOUNDED BY AMERICAN SLAVES WHO WENT BACK TO AFRICA. JUST AS THE FRENCH HAVE A SPECIAL RESPONSIBILITY IN THE CONGO OR THE BRITISH HAVE A SPECIAL RESPONSIBILITY IN GUANA AS A FORM OF COLONIAL POWER, AMERICA, WHICH WAS NOT MUCH OF A COLONIAL POWER BUT DOES HAVE A SPECIAL RESPONSIBILITY IN PLACES LIKE THE PHILIPPINES AND PLACES LIKE LIBERIA BECAUSE OF OUR HISTORY WITH THOSE COUNTRIES WHEN THEY WERE DEPENDENT UPON US.

Yepsen: SO IT'S OKAY TO SEND AMERICAN TROOPS TO LIBERIA BECAUSE OF GENOCIDE, BUT IT'S NOT OKAY TO SEND AMERICAN TROOPS TO STOP SADDAM'S GENOCIDE AGAINST THE KURDS.

Dean: WELL, SEE, THE ISSUE WAS WE DIDN'T DO THAT. IF THERE WERE TO HAVE BEEN A CASE TO BE MADE -- IF PRESIDENT BUSH FIRST HAS SAID WE'RE GOING TO GO ALL THE WAY TO BAGHDAD AND TAKE OUT SADDAM AS A RESULT OF THE ATTACK ON KUWAIT AND THE ATTACK -- SUBSEQUENT ATTACK ON THE SHIITES, WHICH WAS GENOCIDE, THEN A CASE COULD HAVE BEEN MADE, BUT THAT'S NOT HAPPENED. SADDAM HUSSEIN, FRIGHTFUL THOUGH HE WAS, HAD NOT ENGAGED IN GENOCIDE FOR MANY, MANY YEARS. ALL THE SKELETONS THAT THEY'RE UNEARTHING NOW FROM SOUTHERN IRAQ AND THE KURDS -- THE GASSING OF THE KURDS TOOK PLACE QUITE SOME YEARS AGO, AS MUCH AS A DECADE AGO. AND SO TO SAY, WELL, HE COMMITTED GENOCIDE TEN YEARS AGO AND SO, THEREFORE, WE'RE GOING TO TAKE HIM OUT NOW, THAT DOESN'T SEEM QUITE -- QUITE TO SQUARE WITH WHAT THE FACTS ARE.

Glover: GOVERNOR, IF WE COULD SWITCH A MOMENT TO POLITICS, TALK A LITTLE BIT ABOUT YOUR CAMPAIGN. YOU HAVE BEEN THE, QUOTE, HOT CANDIDATE LATELY, AND WE'RE STARTING TO HEAR WARNINGS FROM THE ESTABLISHMENT WING OF THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY THAT A HOWARD DEAN NOMINATION WOULD BE THE FUNCTIONAL EQUIVALENT OF A GEORGE MCGOVERN GETTING THE NOMINATION, THAT IT WOULD BE A GENERAL-ELECTION DISASTER FOR DEMOCRATS. WITHOUT ARGUING ABOUT THE MERITS OF THAT, HOW DO YOU RESPOND TO THAT? HOW DO YOU DEAL WITH THAT POLITICALLY?

Dean: WE JUST KEEP DOING WHAT WE'RE DOING. THEY'VE BEEN TALKING LIKE THAT FOR A LONG TIME. THE MORE OF A THREAT THAT I'VE BECOME TO THE ESTABLISHMENT FIGURES IN WASHINGTON, THE MORE KIND OF TALK YOU'RE GOING TO HEAR THAT -- HEAR LIKE THAT. LET'S LOOK AT MY RECORD. I AM A BALANCED-BUDGET PERSON, A BUDGET HAWK, AND MY RECORD -- MY STATE SHOWS IT. I WANT HEALTH CARE FOR EVERY AMERICAN. WE'VE DONE HEALTH CARE FOR EVERY CHILD UNDER EIGHTEEN AND FOR MANY WORKING POOR PEOPLE IN OUR STATE, AND WE STILL BALANCE THE BUDGET. I SUPPORT CIVIL UNIONS FOR GAY AND LESBIAN COUPLES. I BELIEVE EVERY AMERICAN DESERVES THE SAME RIGHTS UNDER THE LAW. I'M AGAINST A FEDERAL GUN CONTROL LAW OTHER THAN WHAT WE'VE ALREADY GOT. I THINK THAT SHOULD BE LEFT TO THE STATES. WE HAVE NO GUN CONTROL IN VERMONT OTHER THAN THE FEDERAL LAWS. IT SEEMS TO -- AND THERE'S A NUMBER OF OTHER THINGS AS WELL. IT SEEMS TO ME -- AND I ALSO HAVE A VERY STRONG LABOR RECORD. IT SEEMS TO ME THAT IT'S IMPOSSIBLE TO COMPARE ME WITH A LIBERAL OR A CONSERVATIVE BECAUSE I TAKE POSITIONS BASED ON WHAT I BELIEVE ARE THE PRAGMATIC SOLUTIONS AT THE TIME. IT WORKED IN MY STATE. I THINK ULTIMATELY I WILL BE ABLE TO TALK TO AVERAGE AMERICANS ABOUT THE ISSUES THEY CARE ABOUT MORE CREDIBLY THE PEOPLE WHO HAVE SPENT THEIR CAREERS IN WASHINGTON.

Glover: AND THIS MAY BE THE WRONG QUESTION TO ASK THE CANDIDATE HIMSELF, BUT WHAT ARE YOU DOING RIGHT THESE DAYS? APPARENTLY YOU'RE DOING SOMETHING RIGHT. [ LAUGHTER ]

Dean: I CAN'T TELL YOU WHAT I'M DOING RIGHT AND WRONG BECAUSE PARTLY WE'RE HOT AND THERE WILL BE A TIME WHEN WE'RE NOT SO HOT, PROBABLY. THAT'S JUST THE WAY IT GOES. BUT I CAN TELL YOU WHAT THE CAMPAIGN IS ABOUT. I DON'T THINK WE CAN BEAT GEORGE BUSH UNLESS WE STAND UP TO HIM, AND I THINK IT TOOK A LONG TIME FOR INSIDE-THE-BELTWAY DEMOCRATS TO FIGURE THAT OUT. MOST OF MY COMPETITION VOTED FOR THE WAR. THEY VOTED FOR SOME SORT OF TAX CUTS. THEY ALL VOTED FOR NO CHILD LEFT BEHIND. I RECOGNIZED, BECAUSE I WAS NOT INSIDE THE BELTWAY, THAT THOSE ARE NOT GOOD PIECES OF PUBLIC POLICY FOR VERMONT, FOR IOWA, FOR CALIFORNIA, OR ANYPLACE ELSE IN AMERICA, AND I'M NOT AFRAID TO SAY SO. I HAVE A HISTORY OF TAKING POSITIONS THAT PEOPLE DON'T AGREE WITH BECAUSE I THINK THEY'RE THE RIGHT POSITIONS TO TAKE. SOMETIMES I TURN OUT I'M RIGHT. SOMETIMES IT TURNS OUT I WASN'T RIGHT. BUT I THINK MOST AMERICANS DESPERATELY WANT SOMEBODY WHO'S GOING TO SAY WHAT THEY THINK INSTEAD OF SOMEBODY WHO PANDERS TO THEM AT EVERY OPPORTUNITY.

Yepsen: GOVERNOR, WHY WOULD YOU -- YOUR PARTY BE BETTER OFF NOMINATING YOU AS OPPOSED TO A JOHN KERRY OR A JOHN EDWARDS OR A DICK GEPHARDT, PEOPLE WHO HAVE HAD SOME EXPERIENCE IN WASHINGTON, D.C.? WE ARE, AFTER ALL, ELECTING A FEDERAL PRESIDENT.

Dean: BECAUSE WHAT PEOPLE WANT MORE THAN ANYTHING ELSE IS A DECISION-MAKER WHO CAN SPEAK TO THEM DIRECTLY ABOUT THEIR NEEDS, WHICH I'VE DONE. THAT'S WHAT A GOVERNOR DOES, AND THAT'S WHY FOUR OUT OF THE LAST FIVE PRESIDENTS HAVE BEEN GOVERNOR. I THINK THAT THE PARTY WOULD BE BETTER OFF NOMINATING ME BECAUSE WE CAN BRING NEW PEOPLE INTO THE PROCESS. THE EXCITEMENT THAT WE'VE GENERATED -- WE TALKED JUST BEFORE THE SHOW STARTED ABOUT ALL THE MONEY WE'VE RAISED IN THE LAST QUARTER. THE MONEY IS GREAT BUT THE REALLY EXCITING PIECE IS WE'VE GOT 83,000 DONORS, 60,000 WHO NEVER GAVE MONEY TO A POLITICAL CANDIDATE BEFORE. WE CAN'T BEAT GEORGE BUSH UNLESS WE CAN GENERATE THE KIND OF EXCITEMENT THAT BRINGS NEW PEOPLE INTO THE PROCESS. THE GUYS FROM WASHINGTON KEEP THINKING THAT THEY CAN BEAT GEORGE BUSH BY BEING A LITTLE BIT LIKE HIM: GO AHEAD AND VOTE FOR THE WAR; GO AHEAD AND VOTE FOR THE NO CHILD LEFT BEHIND AND SOME OF THE TAX CUTS, EVEN THOUGH YOU MAY NOT WANT AS MANY AS THE PRESIDENT. THAT'S NOT GOING TO BEAT GEORGE BUSH. THAT'S A BORING CAMPAIGN AND PEOPLE AREN'T GOING TO VOTE. THE DEMOCRATS NEED TO GIVE PEOPLE A REASON TO VOTE AGAIN IN THIS COUNTRY. AND IF WE DO AND WE CAN BRING TWO OR THREE MILLION PEOPLE WHO HAVEN'T VOTED IN THE LAST TEN OR FIFTEEN YEARS, WHICH IS EXACTLY WHAT WE'VE BEEN DOING AROUND THE -- AS WE GO AROUND THE COUNTRY, BRING THEM BACK INTO THE PROCESS, THEN WE CAN BEAT GEORGE BUSH. BUT WE CAN'T DO IT UNLESS WE CAN EXCITE VOTERS WHO HAVE GIVEN UP ON THE POLITICAL PROCESS.

Glover: LET'S TALK ABOUT THE TIMING OF THIS THING. WE'RE NOW ABOUT SIX MONTHS BEFORE IOWA, THE FIRST TEST IN THE PRIMARY NOMINATING SEEN. WE'RE A YEAR AND A HALF BEFORE THE ELECTION. YOU'RE THE HOT CANDIDATE RIGHT NOW. DID YOU PEAK TOO EARLY?

Dean: ONLY THE VOTERS CAN ANSWER THAT QUESTION. I CAN'T CONTROL THAT. I DIDN'T -- WE DIDN'T GET TO TELL PEOPLE, OH, YEAH, GIVE US THE HYPE NOW AND MAKE US PEAK. ALL WE'RE GOING TO DO IS DO WHAT WE DID WHEN TIMES WERE TOUGH. WE'RE JUST GOING TO PUT ONE FOOT IN FRONT OF THE OTHER AND KEEP GOING EVERY SINGLE DAY. NOW WE'RE THE TARGETS OF A LOT OF THE OTHER CAMPAIGNS. AND AS DAVID SAID, PEOPLE IN WASHINGTON ARE SAYING, "OH LORD, HE CAN'T WIN, WHAT ARE WE GOING TO DO." I ACTUALLY BELIEVE I MAY BE THE ONLY PERSON WHO CAN WIN BECAUSE OF WHAT WE'RE DOING.

Yepsen: WELL, GOVERNOR, TALK ABOUT THAT. IT GOES BACK TO MIKE'S QUESTION ON THE MCGOVERNIZATION OF THE PARTY. HOW CAN A NEW ENGLAND -- WE'LL CALL YOU A LIBERAL ON THE WAR, ANYWAY -- HOPE TO ATTRACT VOTES -- DEMOCRATIC VOTES IN BORDER STATES AND OUT WEST?

Dean: HERE'S WHAT I SAY TO PEOPLE IN THE SOUTH. OUT WEST I'LL HAVE NO PROBLEM. BILL CLINTON WON IN MONTANA. HE WON IN COLORADO. HE WON IN ARIZONA. WE CAN WIN THE WESTERN STATES, AND I SHOULD BE ABLE TO DO A BETTER JOB WINNING THE WESTERN STATES BECAUSE GUNS REALLY MATTER A LOT IN THE WESTERN STATES. AND AS IT HAPPENS, I'M FROM A RURAL STATE AND I UNDERSTAND THAT THE GUN ISSUE IN RURAL STATES IS DIFFERENT THAN THE GUN ISSUE IN URBAN STATES. MY ATTITUDE IS LET CALIFORNIA AND NEW YORK HAVE AS MUCH GUN CONTROL AS THEY WANT, BUT JUST DON'T MAKE A LAW THAT APPLIES EQUALLY TO VERMONT AND WYOMING AND MONTANA. BUT THE ECONOMY IS THE CRITICAL ISSUE HERE IN THE END. I WAS IN CEDAR RAPIDS YESTERDAY TALKING TO A GROUP OF UNEMPLOYED IOWANS, AND WE TALKED ABOUT THE WAR. AND I'VE FORGOTTEN WHO THE REPORTER WAS. IT MIGHT HAVE BEEN TOM BEAUMONT FROM THE "REGISTER." IT MIGHT NOT. I CAN'T REMEMBER. BUT HE -- IN ONE OF THE PRESS REPORTS, SOMEBODY WAS QUOTED AS SAYING, "YEP, WE THINK DEAN IS RIGHT ON THE WAR, BUT THAT'S NOT WHAT'S GOING TO WIN THE ELECTION. WHAT'S GOING TO WIN THE ELECTION IS THE ECONOMY, BECAUSE I'VE BEEN OUT OF WORK FOR SIX MONTHS." WHEN I GO TO THE SOUTH, I SAY, PARTICULARLY TO WHITE SOUTHERN VOTERS, YOU'VE BEEN VOTING REPUBLICAN FOR THIRTY YEARS. TELL ME WHAT YOU HAVE TO SHOW FOR IT. THERE ARE 103,000 CHILDREN IN SOUTH CAROLINA WITH NO HEALTH INSURANCE. MOST OF THOSE KIDS ARE WHITE. HAS YOUR JOB GONE TO INDONESIA? HAVE YOU HAD A RAISE IN FIVE YEARS? ARE YOU HAPPY WITH THE $80 MILLION THAT THE LEGISLATURE CUT OUT OF YOUR PUBLIC SCHOOL SYSTEM BECAUSE THE PRESIDENT CAN'T MANAGE THE ECONOMY? AND IF THE ANSWER TO THOSE QUESTIONS TO YOU IS NOT SATISFACTORY, MAYBE YOU SHOULD CONSIDER VOTING DEMOCRAT. NOW, I HAVE NO ILLUSIONS THAT THEY'RE ALL GOING TO SAY, OH, YES, WE'VE SEEN THE ERROR OF OUR WAYS AND VOTE DEMOCRAT, BUT THEY'RE GOING TO HEAR AN ARGUMENT THAT DEMOCRATS HAVEN'T BEEN GIVING IN THE SOUTH FOR A LONG TIME. DEMOCRATS HAVE THOUGHT THAT THE WAY TO WIN IN THE SOUTH WAS SORT OF TO COZY UP TO THE CONSERVATIVES ON ISSUES LIKE THE FLAG AND ABORTION AND ALL THAT STUFF. NEVER MIND THOSE ISSUES. LET'S TALK ABOUT BREAD AND BUTTER. WHEN PEOPLE HAVE TO VOTE AN ISSUE, THEY'RE GOING TO CHOOSE THEIR CHILDREN OVER THE FLAG OR ANY OF THAT OTHER BUSINESS, AND THAT'S WHAT WE HAVE TO TALK ABOUT WHEN WE GO TO THE SOUTH.

Borg: IF YOU WERE PRESIDENT, YOU'RE SAYING THAT THE ECONOMY IS THE THING THAT WILL BEAT GEORGE BUSH.

Dean: I THINK THAT'S THE PRINCIPAL ISSUE.

Borg: WHAT WOULD YOU DO IF YOU WERE PRESIDENT RIGHT NOW?

Dean: I WOULD GET RID OF THE TAX CUTS. ALL THE TAX CUTS WENT TO THE WRONG PEOPLE. THEY DIDN'T INCREASE SPENDING IN THE ECONOMY, AND THEY PRECLUDED HEALTH CARE, INVESTMENT IN EDUCATION, AND CREATION OF INFRASTRUCTURE. SECONDLY, I WOULD START INVESTING IN SMALL BUSINESSES. MY HEALTH CARE PLAN GIVES $9 BILLION TO THE SMALL BUSINESS COMMUNITY IN THIS COUNTRY TO HELP THEM PAY FOR HEALTH INSURANCE. I WOULD ALSO MAKE CAPITAL AVAILABLE TO SMALL BUSINESSES. IF YOU TALK TO ANY SMALL BUSINESSPERSON, YOU FIND THAT THEIR BIGGEST PROBLEM OTHER THAN HEALTH CARE COST IS THEY CAN'T BORROW MONEY. AND THERE ARE A LOT OF MECHANISMS THAT HAVE BEEN USED IN STUDENT LOANS AND MORTGAGES AND SO FORTH THAT YOU CAN USE IN SMALL BUSINESSES. THIRDLY, IF THAT DOESN'T WORK AND THAT DOESN'T TURN IT AROUND, THEN I'D START TO INVEST IN INFRASTRUCTURE: SCHOOLS, ROADS, BRIDGES, BROADBAND IN THE MOST RURAL PARTS OF OUR COUNTRY, TRANSMISSION TOWERS SO WE CAN START BRINGING WIND POWER IN TO THE REST OF THE COUNTRY. I CAN SEE KARL ROVE RIGHT NOW SAYING, WELL, THERE'S THE BIRKENSTOCK GOVERNOR FROM VERMONT TALKING ABOUT WIND POWER. BUT YOU KNOW HOW WIND POWER CAN WORK IN IOWA. THE DANES GET 20 PERCENT OF ALL THEIR ELECTRIC POWER FROM WIND. WE GET LESS THAN 1 PERCENT. WE ARE SO FAR BEHIND OTHER COUNTRIES, AND IT'S BECAUSE WE HAVE THIS FASCINATION, BECAUSE OF THE PRESIDENT, WITH OIL. WE'VE JUST GOT TO GET OURSELVES OFF MIDDLE EASTERN OIL.

Yepsen: GOVERNOR, YOU SAY GET RID OF THE TAX CUT. THAT'S ANOTHER WAY OF SAYING RAISING TAXES. HOW IS A TAX INCREASE A GOOD CURE FOR ECONOMIC ILLS? MOST ECONOMISTS SUGGEST THAT YOU CUT SPENDING IN HARD TIMES IN ORDER TO STIMULATE THE ECONOMY.

Dean: THE DEFICITS ARE KILLING US, DAVID. WHEN BILL CLINTON BALANCED THE BUDGET, WHICH REQUIRED A TAX INCREASE IN 1993, HE GOT NOT ONE REPUBLICAN VOTE. AND I'M CONVINCED THAT THAT ENGENDERED THE KIND OF CONFIDENCE IN AMERICA THAT LED TO THE BIGGEST AREA OF PROSPERITY IN THE LAST HUNDRED YEARS. IF YOU START TO BALANCE BUDGETS -- AND YOU CAN'T BALANCE THE BUDGET WITH THESE RIDICULOUS TAX CUTS -- THEN PEOPLE GET CONFIDENCE IN THE ECONOMY AGAIN AND SAY: YES, THERE ARE NOT CHRONIC DEFICITS AS FAR AS THE EYE CAN SEE; YES, WE ARE GOING TO BE ABLE TO TURN THE CORNER HERE; YES, WE CAN INVEST IN AMERICA AGAIN. I THINK MOST PEOPLE IN THIS COUNTRY WOULD BE GLAD TO PAY THE TAXES THEY PAID WHEN BILL CLINTON WAS PRESIDENT, IF ONLY THEY COULD HAVE THE ECONOMY THEY HAD WHEN BILL CLINTON WAS PRESIDENT.

Glover: LET'S TALK PRAGMATISM FOR A SECOND. YOU'RE TRYING TO GET THE DEMOCRATIC NOMINATION TO RUN AGAINST A REPUBLICAN PRESIDENT WHO'S GOING TO HAVE ALL THE POWERS THAT INCUMBENCY BRINGS, AND HE'S GOING TO HAVE $200 MILLION, PROBABLY, THAT HE'LL RAISE. HOW DO YOU COMPETE WITH THAT? HOW DO YOU COPE WITH THAT MONEY EDGE?

Dean: WELL, WE MAY BE THE ONLY CANDIDACY ON THE DEMOCRATIC SIDE THAT MIGHT BE ABLE TO DO THAT. WE'RE NOT GOING TO RAISE $200 MILLION, BUT WHAT HAPPENED LAST QUARTER WAS ASTONISHING. WE HAD 160,000 PEOPLE. WE STARTED OUT WITH 22,000. AT THE END WE HAD 160,000. WE HAVE 60,000 PEOPLE IN THE FIELD ALL OVER THE NET. WE'RE NOW STARTING OUTREACH PROGRAMS IN THE LATINO AND THE AFRICAN-AMERICAN COMMUNITIES, THE NATIVE AMERICAN COMMUNITIES. WHAT WE'RE GOING TO TRY TO DO IS ESSENTIALLY ORGANIZE AN ARMY OF PEOPLE WHO HAVE GIVEN UP AND NOW WANT TO GET BACK IN THE POLITICAL PROCESS AND TRY TO BEAT HIM THAT WAY, AND WE CAN RAISE MONEY IN SMALL INCREMENTS. IN DOING THAT, WE'VE DONE THAT VERY SUCCESSFULLY.

Glover: HOW MUCH CAN YOU RAISE?

Dean: A LOT. WE RAISED MORE THAN ANYBODY ELSE IN ANY QUARTER IN THIS PAST QUARTER, JUST SIMPLY BY SMALL DONATIONS. AND WE THINK WE HAVE A HUGE CAPACITY TO EXPAND THAT LIST FROM 200,000 NOW TO MAYBE 400,000 OR 450- BY THE END OF THE QUARTER AND MAYBE EVEN TO A MILLION BY THE END OF THE YEAR.

Yepsen: GOVERNOR, WHAT'S YOUR STRATEGY BEYOND IOWA AND NEW HAMPSHIRE? YOU'RE DOING WELL IN THESE TWO STATES. YOU'RE PUTTING A LOT OF TIME AND EFFORT HERE. BUT THERE ARE A LOT OF PEOPLE WHO LOOK AT THIS RACE AND SAY YOU'RE JUST A TWO-TRICK PONY HERE.

Dean: WE'VE GOT ORGANIZATIONS IN EVERY STATE BECAUSE OF META, 60,000 VOLUNTEERS AROUND THE COUNTRY. WE'VE GOT PEOPLE ON THE GROUND NOW IN ARIZONA AND NEW MEXICO. I WAS IN SANTA FE A COUPLE WEEKS AGO; 2,500 PEOPLE CAME OUT. I WAS IN TUCSON LAST WEEK; 1,800 PEOPLE FILLED A HOTEL BALLROOM. WE ARE GETTING PEOPLE OUT IN OTHER STATES THAT ARE NEXT THAT WE HAVE TO WIN: ARIZONA; NEW MEXICO; WE'VE HAD AN ORGANIZATION IN SOUTH CAROLINA FOR SIX MONTHS; WE'RE PUTTING ONE TOGETHER NOW IN MICHIGAN AND WISCONSIN. SO WE ARE PREPARED NOW TO TAKE ON THE NEXT TIER.

Glover: LET'S LOOK AT THE TACTICS IN THIS CAMPAIGN. YOU'VE GOT IOWA, YOU'VE GOT NEW HAMPSHIRE, AND YOU'VE GOT A THIRD WEEK THAT INCLUDES SOUTH CAROLINA AND, AS YOU MENTIONED, ARIZONA AND SOME OTHER STATES. HOW QUICKLY AFTER IOWA WILL THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY HAVE A NOMINEE? THERE'S SOME SUSPICION THAT THERE WILL BE A NOMINEE WITHIN A MONTH. DO YOU SUBSCRIBE TO THAT?

Dean: I THINK THE MOST LIKELY TIME THAT WE'LL HAVE A NOMINEE MAY BE AFTER THE MARCH 2 PRIMARIES, WHICH IS A HUGE, HUGE BLOCK: CALIFORNIA, TEXAS, OHIO, NEW YORK. AFTER THAT WE MAY HAVE A CLEAR INDICATION; WE MAY NOT.

Glover: DO YOU THINK IT WILL TAKE THAT LONG?

Dean: WELL, YOU'VE GOT SOME GOOD PEOPLE RUNNING. EVEN THOUGH I CRITICIZE PEOPLE FROM BEING INSIDE WASHINGTON, I MEAN THERE ARE CERTAINLY VERY CREDIBLE CANDIDATES WHO CAN RAISE MONEY. I DON'T THINK THIS IS GOING TO BE A SLAM DUNK JUST BECAUSE WE HAVE A HUGE BASE OF SUPPORT.

Glover: BUT THERE SEEMS TO BE SOME INTENSE PRESSURE TO GET A NOMINEE. I MEAN THE MEDIA IS GOING TO PUT PRESSURE ON YOU. THERE'S GOING TO BE A LOT OF PRESSURE FOR SOMEBODY TO EMERGE QUICKLY.

Dean: WELL, ONLY THE VOTERS GET TO DECIDE THOUGH.

Yepsen: WELL, TO THAT POINT, GOVERNOR, ONE OF THE MOST IMPORTANT CONSTITUENCIES IN ANY DEMOCRATIC PRIMARY FIGHT IS ORGANIZED LABOR.

Dean: YEP.

Yepsen: DICK GEPHARDT HAS DONE PRETTY WELL WITH THOSE FOLKS IN THE PAST.

Dean: YEP.

Yepsen: WHAT DO YOU SAY TO LABOR LEADERS, TO SHOP STEWARDS, TO PEOPLE WHO REALLY DO MAKE A DIFFERENCE IN CAUCUSES AND PRIMARIES AND RAISING MONEY? WHAT'S THE LABOR -- WHAT'S THE PRO LABOR ARGUMENT FOR HOWARD DEAN OVER SOME OF THESE OTHER PEOPLE THEY'VE WORKED WITH FOR YEARS?

Dean: WELL, FIRST OF ALL, ON THE POLITICS SIDE, I HAVE A HUNDRED PERCENT LABOR RECORD. I WON THE FIRST PAUL WELLSTONE AWARD FOR DOING SOME WORK IN ORGANIZING IN MY OWN STATE. BUT I WAS JUST OUT ON A PICKET LINE EARLIER TODAY, AND I WAS TALKING WITH SOME OF THE FOLKS. IOWA IS NOT A PARTICULARLY LABOR-FRIENDLY STATE. I HAVE, IN MY STATE, PREVAILING WAGE, LITTLE DAVIS-BACON, A MINIMUM WAGE OF $7 AN HOUR STARTING NEXT YEAR, AND LABOR LAWS THAT BASICALLY ENCOURAGE ORGANIZED LABOR. OUR ECONOMY IS BETTER THAN MOST ECONOMIES. I THINK THIS NOTION THAT WE'VE GOT TO PUSH JOBS AND WAGES DOWN TO THE BOTTOM TO MAKE THE ECONOMY STRONGER IS CRAZY. IN ORDER TO HAVE A STRONG ECONOMY, AVERAGE WORKING PEOPLE HAVE TO MAKE A DECENT LIVING SO THEY CAN ACTUALLY SPEND MONEY AND PUT IT BACK INTO THE ECONOMY.

Borg: LET ME GIVE YOU A FOR INSTANCE, THEN. THE WORLD TRADE ORGANIZATION'S RECENT DECISION ON STEEL IMPORTS AND THE DUTIES THAT THIS COUNTRY PUTS ON, DECLARED NOT LEGAL. WHAT WOULD YOU DO IF YOU WERE PRESIDENT?

Dean: YOU KNOW, THAT IS -- YOU KNOW WHAT I'D DO? I WOULD PONY UP SOME MONEY FOR THE HEALTH AND PENSION BENEFITS FOR STEEL WORKERS. THAT'S THE BIG PROBLEM WITH THE AMERICAN STEEL INDUSTRY IS THE OVERHANG. THEY CAN GET THEIR PRODUCTIVE COSTS IN LINE. THEIR PROBLEM IS THERE'S ENORMOUS OVERHANG FROM ALL THE PENSION AND HEALTH CARE LIABILITIES FOR THEIR RETIREES AND OTHERS, AND THAT'S ABOUT A $3-BILLION LIABILITY. THAT WE CAN DEAL WITH IN THE BUDGET. THE PROBLEM IS NOT THE WTO SAYING YOU CAN'T, YOU KNOW, HAVE TARIFFS. THE PROBLEM IS WE NEED LABOR AND ENVIRONMENTAL STANDARDS WITH ALL OUR TRADE AGREEMENTS TO GO ELSEWHERE. THEN THE WTO WON'T BE MAKING THOSE KINDS OF DECISIONS.

Borg: THAT WOULD TAKE TIME. WHAT WOULD YOU DO WITH THE IMMEDIATE PROBLEM OF THE WTO DECISION?

Dean: THAT I WOULD TAKE --

Borg: ABIDE BY IT?

Dean: YOU'D HAVE TO ABIDE BY IT. HOW CAN YOU NOT ABIDE BY IT? BUT I WANT TO REDO THE WTO. I WANT TO MAKE IT CLEAR TO THE WTO THAT A DEAN PRESIDENCY WILL REQUIRE LABOR AND ENVIRONMENTAL STANDARDS IN EVERY SINGLE LABOR AGREEMENT THAT WE HAVE ANYWHERE IN THE WORLD, AND THAT'S GOING TO HAVE TO BE FIXED RETROACTIVELY AS WELL PROSPECTIVELY.

Yepsen: GOVERNOR, I WANT TO ASK YOU ABOUT CIVIL UNIONS. POLLS SHOW THAT MOST AMERICANS DO NOT SUPPORT GAY MARRIAGES. FIRST OF ALL, TELL ME WHAT'S THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN A CIVIL UNION AND A GAY MARRIAGE. IS IT JUST A WORD GAME THAT POLITICIANS PLAY?

Dean: I DON'T THINK IT'S EXACTLY A WORD GAME. THE WORD "MARRIAGE" COMES FROM A RELIGIOUS INSTITUTION THAT'S BEEN ESTABLISHED FOR SEVERAL THOUSAND YEARS. WHEN THE RULE OF LAW CAME IN, THE WORD "MARRIAGE" BECAME BOTH A CIVIL AND A RELIGIOUS INSTITUTION, AND THAT'S VERY CONFUSING TO AMERICANS. SO WHAT WE -- THE REASON WE CHOSE TO DO CIVIL UNIONS AND NOT GAY MARRIAGE IN OUR STATE IS BECAUSE CIVIL UNIONS IMPLIES A CIVIL RELATIONSHIP WHICH IS RECOGNIZED BY THE STATE OF VERMONT, WHICH I APPROVE OF, WHICH ALLOWS GAY PEOPLE TO HAVE EXACTLY THE SAME RIGHTS AS I DO, SUCH AS HOSPITAL VISITATION, INSURANCE, INHERITANCE, AND ALL THOSE KINDS OF THINGS. WHAT I WOULD DO AS PRESIDENT IS SAY WE RECOGNIZE THOSE KINDS OF UNIONS FOR FEDERAL PURPOSES, SO UNDER THE FEDERAL LAW EVERYBODY HAS EXACTLY THE SAME RIGHTS AS EVERYBODY ELSE. WE DIDN'T CALL IT MARRIAGE BECAUSE WE FEEL THAT MARRIAGE REALLY IS PRINCIPALLY STILL A RELIGIOUS INSTITUTION. I KNOW THERE'S JUSTICE OF THE PEACE AND ALL THAT, BUT MOST PEOPLE THINK OF MARRIED PEOPLE GETTING MARRIED IN A CHURCH. AND WE DON'T THINK IT'S PROPER FOR THE STATE TO TELL CHURCHES WHO THEY CAN AND CANNOT MARRY, BUT WE DO THINK IT'S PROPER TO HAVE EQUAL RIGHTS UNDER THE LAW. SO IN VERMONT, EVEN THOUGH WE DON'T HAVE GAY MARRIAGE, A GAY PERSON CAN HAVE EXACTLY THE SAME RIGHTS AS EVERYBODY ELSE.

Glover: ONE OF THE ISSUES THAT'S CROPPED UP IN THE CAMPAIGN TRAIL IN RECENT DAYS HAS BEEN TRADE. CONGRESSMAN GEPHARDT HAS TAKEN TO ATTACKING YOU AND SENATOR JOHN KERRY OF MASSACHUSETTS BY NAME FOR YOUR POSITIONS ON TRADE, SUPPORTING ISSUES LIKE THE NORTH AMERICAN FREE TRADE AGREEMENT. HOW DO YOU RESPOND TO THAT, AND HOW DO YOU DEAL WITH THAT WITH AN IMPORTANT DEMOCRATIC CONSTITUENCY LIKE LABOR THAT DOESN'T AGREE WITH YOU?

Dean: MY -- WELL, I THINK LABOR DOES AGREE WITH ME. I THINK DICK HAS MISCHARACTERIZED MY POSITION. MY POSITION ON NAFTA IS VERY CLEAR. WE SHOULDN'T GET RID OF IT, AS DENNIS KUCINICH TALKS ABOUT. BUT WE NEED TO MAKE -- TRADE IS IMPORTANT TO AMERICA AND IT'S IMPORTANT FOR OUR NATIONAL DEFENSE, BUT WE NEED THE SAME LABOR STANDARDS IN MEXICO AND CHINA AS YOU HAVE IN THE UNITED STATES AND THE SAME ENVIRONMENTAL STANDARDS. I THINK THAT POSITION IS VERY CONSISTENT WITH WHAT LABOR SUPPORTS. HOW DID I GET MY HUNDRED PERCENT COPE RECORD IF I'M A BIG SUPPORTER OF NAFTA?

Glover: AND WHY DO YOU THINK THE CONGRESSMAN CHOSE TO BEGIN ASSAULTING YOU AND SENATOR KERRY ON THAT PARTICULAR ISSUE? THERE ARE SOME WHO CHARACTERIZE THAT AS A DESPERATION MOVE.

Dean: WELL, I WOULDN'T GET INTO THAT. I THINK THAT -- YOU ALL GET TO WRITE ABOUT WHYS AND SPECULATE ABOUT MOTIVES, BUT I TRY TO AVOID SPECULATING ABOUT THE MOTIVES OF OTHER CANDIDATES. NOW, PRESIDENT BUSH I MIGHT SPECULATE BUT NOT --

Yepsen: BUT THIS IS A SERIOUS QUESTION, THOUGH, GOVERNOR. I MEAN HOW CAN THE -- AS YOU CALL YOURSELF, THE BIRKENSTOCK CANDIDATE, APPEAL TO ORGANIZED LABOR?

Dean: BECAUSE I'M REALLY -- WHEN I CALL MYSELF THE BIRKENSTOCK CANDIDATE, I'M LAUGHING AT IT. I DON'T -- I DON'T REALLY SERIOUSLY CONSIDER MYSELF THE BIRKENSTOCK -- ONLY CARL ROVE WOULD SAY SUCH A THING AS THAT. I DO APPEAL -- HOW DO I APPEAL TO ORGANIZED LABOR IN ELEVEN AND A HALF YEARS AS GOVERNOR GETTING THEIR ENDORSEMENTS ALL THE TIME? BY BEING FAIR, BY SIMPLY BEING FAIR TO WORKING PEOPLE, BECAUSE THAT IS IMPORTANT IN THIS COUNTRY'S ECONOMY.

Yepsen: GOVERNOR, BEFORE WE GO, WE'VE GOT JUST A COUPLE MINUTES LEFT, I WANT TO ASK A PAROCHIAL QUESTION: RURAL AMERICA. YOU'RE IN RURAL AMERICA. WHY WOULD YOU BE THE BEST PRESIDENT FOR RURAL AMERICA? AND SECONDLY, WHAT DOES A GUY FROM VERMONT AND NEW ENGLAND REALLY KNOW ABOUT THE FARM PROBLEMS IN THIS COUNTRY?

Dean: AN ENORMOUS AMOUNT. OUR DAIRY FARMERS ARE REALLY HURTING RIGHT NOW BECAUSE THIS PRESIDENT HAS GUTTED THE FARM BILL. I GOVERN A RURAL STATE. BY ONE MEASURE, WE'RE THE MOST RURAL STATE IN AMERICA; 66 PERCENT OF OUR PEOPLE LIVE IN TOWNS OF LESS THAN 2,500. I UNDERSTAND RURAL AMERICA, I UNDERSTAND JOBS IN RURAL AMERICA, AND WE'VE HAD SOME SUCCESS WITH JOBS IN RURAL AMERICA AND I KNOW HOW TO BRING JOBS TO RURAL AMERICA. AND THAT -- AND YOU'RE DOING SOME OF IT IN IOWA. I'VE SEEN PLACES IN IOWA WHERE YOU HAVE INFORMATION-BASED BUSINESSES IN VERY SMALL TOWNS. I'LL TELL YOU SOMETHING ABOUT IOWA THAT I'VE LEARNED IN THE YEAR AND A HALF, OR WHATEVER, I'VE SPENT HERE. IT'S A LOT LIKE VERMONT. PEOPLE WANT TO LIVE HERE BECAUSE YOU HAVE SMALL TOWNS, GOOD SCHOOL SYSTEMS, AND PLACES WHERE YOUR KIDS CAN WALK TO SCHOOL AND YOU DON'T HAVE TO WORRY ABOUT THEM BEING BOPPED OVER THE HEAD. WHAT YOU NEED IS JOBS MORE THAN ANYTHING IN THOSE BEAUTIFUL RURAL TOWNS THAT I'VE SPENT SO MUCH TIME IN THE LAST YEAR AND A HALF AROUND HERE, AND THAT MEANS YOU HAVE TO HAVE INFORMATION-BASED JOBS. THE OLD AGRICULTURAL JOBS ARE NOT COMING BACK. THEY'RE NOT COMING BACK TO VERMONT. THEY'RE NOT COMING BACK TO IOWA. BUT NEW JOBS, INFORMATION-BASED JOBS CAN COME BACK, AND IT MEANS INVESTING IN INFRASTRUCTURE. AND I THINK THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT OUGHT TO HELP WITH THAT.

Glover: WE HAVE LESS THAN A MINUTE TO GO. PLAY A LITTLE HANDICAP GAME FOR ME: WHO'S DOING WELL HERE; WHO'S NOT DOING SO WELL; HOW DO THINGS LOOK HERE?

Dean: WE THINK WE'RE DOING WELL BUT WE THINK WE HAVE A LONG WAY TO GO. WE HAVE SIX MONTHS. AND IOWANS ARE VERY THOUGHTFUL, CAREFUL, RESPECTFUL PEOPLE, AND WE ALL HAVE TO MAKE OUR CASE. AND IF WE DON'T, THEN WE DON'T WIN.

Glover: GIVEN CONGRESSMAN GEPHARDT'S LONG HISTORY HERE, CAN YOU BEAT HIM HERE?

Dean: I DON'T KNOW. WE'RE GOING TO TRY TO DO THE VERY BEST WE CAN. WE WANT TO WIN BUT IT'S HARD WORK AND DICK HAS BEEN HERE A LONG TIME. I WORKED FOR DICK OUT HERE IN 1988. I ACTUALLY CAMPAIGNED FOR HIM IN CLINTON AND DAVENPORT. AND THE BEST PORK CHOP I EVER HAD IN 1988 IN AMANA.

Borg: GOVERNOR DEAN, THANKS FOR TAKING TIME TO BE WITH US TODAY.

Dean: MY PLEASURE.

Borg: ON OUR NEXT EDITION OF "IOWA PRESS," WE'LL STAY WITH PRESIDENTIAL POLITICS. WE'LL BE QUESTIONING MASSACHUSETTS SENATOR JOHN KERRY, ALSO SEEKING THE DEMOCRATIC NOMINATION. I HOPE YOU'LL WATCH: 6:30 FRIDAY; SUNDAY AT NOON. AND THAT'S IT FOR THIS WEEKEND'S EDITION OF "IOWA PRESS." I'M DEAN BORG. THANKS FOR JOINING US TODAY.

FUNDING FOR THIS PROGRAM WAS PROVIDED BY "FRIENDS," THE IOWA PUBLIC TELEVISION FOUNDATION... GENERATIONS OF FAMILIES AND FRIENDS WHO FEEL PASSIONATE ABOUT THE PROGRAMS THEY WATCH ON IOWA PUBLIC TELEVISION;

AND BY THE IOWA BANKERS ASSOCIATION... FOR PERSONAL, BUSINESS, AND COMMERCIAL NEEDS, IOWA BANKS HELP IOWANS REACH THEIR FINANCIAL GOALS; AND BY THE ASSOCIATED GENERAL CONTRACTORS OF IOWA, THE PUBLIC'S PARTNER IN BUILDING IOWA'S HIGHWAY, BRIDGE, AND MUNICIPAL UTILITY INFRASTRUCTURE.