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| The Life and Legacy of President Reagan
IOWA PRESS #3142>> Borg: RONALD WILSON REAGAN IS LAID TO REST AS THE NATION HONORS HIS LEADERSHIP. WE'LL REVIEW THE LIFE AND LEGACY OF THE UNITED STATES' 40TH PRESIDENT ON THIS EDITION OF "IOWA PRESS."
FUNDING FOR THIS PROGRAM WAS PROVIDED BY "FRIENDS," THE IOWA PUBLIC TELEVISION FOUNDATION... GENERATIONS OF FAMILIES AND FRIENDS WHO FEEL PASSIONATE ABOUT THE PROGRAMS THEY WATCH ON IOWA PUBLIC TELEVISION; AND BY THE IOWA BANKERS ASSOCIATION... FOR PERSONAL, BUSINESS, AND COMMERCIAL NEEDS, IOWA BANKS HELP IOWANS REACH THEIR FINANCIAL GOALS. ON STATEWIDE IOWA PUBLIC TELEVISION, THIS IS THE FRIDAY, JUNE 11 EDITION OF "IOWA PRESS." HERE IS DEAN BORG. Borg: FEW AMERICAN PRESIDENTS ATTAIN STATUS AS A LIVING LEGEND, BUT RONALD REAGAN DID IT, MOVING FROM BROADCASTING TO THE SILVER SCREEN AND THEN INTO THE POLITICS OF AN ACTORS UNION LEADER AND ON TO GOVERNOR OF CALIFORNIA AND THEN TO THE WORLD STAGE AS A TWO-TERM PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES FROM 1981 TO 1989. ALONG WITH THOSE FORMAL TITLES CAME DESCRIPTORS. SOME CALLED HIM AFFABLE, THE GREAT COMMUNICATOR, AND REPUBLICAN CONSERVATIVE ICON. MIDWESTERNERS IDENTIFY WITH REAGAN'S ROOTS: NATIVE OF DIXON, ILLINOIS; ON-THE-AIR PERSONALITY AND SPORTS BROADCASTER WITH IOWA RADIO STATIONS, "WOC" IN DAVENPORT AND "WHO" IN DES MOINES. AND IT'S IN THAT CONTEXT, RONALD REAGAN'S MULTIPLE INFLUENCE ON AMERICAN SOCIETY, THAT WE'VE CONVENED A CROSS-SECTION OF VIEWPOINTS AT THE "IOWA PRESS" TABLE: "DES MOINES REGISTER" POLITICAL COLUMNIST DAVID YEPSEN; REAGAN POLITICAL CONTEMPORARY ROBERT RAY, GOVERNOR OF IOWA FROM 1969 TO 1983; DRAKE UNIVERSITY POLITICAL SCIENCE PROFESSOR DENNIS GOLDFORD; AND FORMER "DES MOINES REGISTER" REPORTER AND COLUMNIST AND SOCIAL ASSOCIATE OF MR. REAGAN, WALT SHOTWELL. GOVERNOR RAY, I'D LIKE TO START WITH YOU AND INVITE OTHERS JUST TO COME IN AS THEY WILL ON THE SUBJECTS THAT WE'RE GOING TO BE DISCUSSING. BUT YOU WERE A CONTEMPORARY POLITICALLY OF GOVERNOR REAGAN AT THAT TIME. YOU WERE ELECTED, I BELIEVE, IT WAS IN 1969. Ray: '67. Borg: '67. I WAS ABOUT TO SAY THAT, IN '67. BUT MR. REAGAN ABOUT THE SAME TIME IN CALIFORNIA; SO YOU WERE INTERACTING AS FELLOW GOVERNORS. WHAT WAS THE NATURE OF THAT ASSOCIATION? Ray: WELL, I HAD MET RONALD REAGAN BEFORE, BUT I REALLY GOT TO KNOW HIM AFTER I BECAME A GOVERNOR. AND WE SAT NEXT TO EACH OTHER DURING ALL GOVERNORS CONFERENCES. IT WAS THE WAY IN WHICH THE STATES WERE ADMITTED INTO THE UNION, SO WE SAT TOGETHER AND WE HAD MANY, MANY CONVERSATIONS. AND I DON'T THINK WE EVER STARTED WITH A CONVERSATION THAT WE DIDN'T SAY SOMETHING ABOUT IOWA, BECAUSE HE HAD A GREAT FONDNESS FOR IOWA, HE HAD AN APPRECIATION THAT MUCH OF HIS CAREER STARTED IN IOWA. AND HE HAD SOME MIDWESTERN VALUES. THIS WAS A MAN YOU COULD TRUST. YOU COULD BELIEVE WHEN HE SAID SOMETHING, THAT'S WHAT HE MEANT. HE WAS A PERSON THAT WAS AFFABLE. HE HAD A GOOD SENSE OF HUMOR. MY WIFE ALWAYS ASKED WHEN WE WERE GOING TO A DINNER, WERE WE GOING TO SIT AT HIS TABLE -- AND OFTENTIMES WE DID -- BECAUSE HE ALWAYS HAD GOOD STORIES. HE WAS FUN TO BE WITH, AND HE WAS A REMARKABLE HUMAN BEING. HE WAS A GREAT LEADER, NOT ONLY FOR THIS COUNTRY BUT FOR THE WORLD. Yepsen: YOU KNOW, DEAN, I THINK IT'S INTERESTING GOVERNOR RAY AND GOVERNOR REAGAN DID SIT NEXT TO EACH OTHER, AND IT GOT GOVERNOR RAY IN SOME TROUBLE, BECAUSE IN THE BOOK OF REAGAN'S LETTERS, THERE IS A LETTER FROM GOVERNOR REAGAN TO H.R. GROSS, WHO WAS A VERY CONSERVATIVE CONGRESSMAN FROM IOWA. Borg: THE THIRD DISTRICT. Yepsen: YES. AND GROSS IS OBVIOUSLY CONCERNED THAT REAGAN IS GETTING TOO CLOSE TO BOB RAY, WHO IS KIND OF A CENTRIST REPUBLICAN, AND REAGAN REASSURES GROSS THAT, NO, HE'S NOT GOING MODERATE. Borg: YOU'RE NOT GOING TO TAINT HIM; IS THAT IT? Ray: WELL, I ASKED HIM ABOUT THAT AND HE LAUGHED AND I THINK -- I FRANKLY THINK IT WAS PART OF HIS HUMOR. NOW, H.R. GROSS PROBABLY THOUGHT OTHERWISE. BUT WE HAD A GOOD RELATIONSHIP, AND I THINK WE WERE FRIENDS, NOTWITHSTANDING HIS CLEVER LETTER BACK TO H.R. GROSS. Borg: MR. GOLDFORD, GOVERNOR RAY HAS BROUGHT UP IOWA VALUES THAT HE LIKED TO TALK ABOUT. DID YOU SEE THOSE THINGS CARRYING THROUGH AS A POLITICAL SCIENTIST, IOWA VALUES, INTO THE PRESIDENCY? Goldford: I THINK IN TWO WAYS. FIRST OF ALL, GOVERNOR AND THEN PRESIDENT REAGAN ALWAYS SEEMED TO BE A STRAIGHT SHOOTER, AND I THINK THAT'S SOMETHING WE ASSOCIATE WITH IOWA POLITICAL CULTURE. ADDITIONALLY, HE WOULD FIGHT HARD FOR HIS POLITICAL VIEWS, BUT AT THE END OF THE DAY, THE OTHER GUY WAS JUST ANOTHER GUY ON THE OTHER TEAM. IT'S LIKE WHAT BOB DOLE SAID IN '96: THEY'RE NOT OUR ENEMIES; THEY'RE OUR OPPONENTS. THERE'S A BIG DIFFERENCE THERE. AND I THINK THAT'S SOMETHING WE SAW IN PRESIDENT REAGAN AS WELL. Borg: DO YOU THINK AN IOWA VALUE, AMONG SOME IOWANS -- I DON'T KNOW IF IT'S UNIVERSAL -- IS TO BE SELF-EFFACING? WAS MR. REAGAN SELF-EFFACING, DO YOU THINK? Goldford: I THINK HE WAS FOND OF THAT OLD SAYING THAT THERE'S NO LIMIT TO WHAT YOU CAN DO IF YOU'RE WILLING TO GIVE CREDIT TO OTHERS, AND I THINK THAT SPEAKS TO THAT DIRECTLY. Borg: MR. SHOTWELL, NOW, I SAID THAT YOU WERE A SOCIAL ASSOCIATE. WHAT WAS THE AGE -- WHEN MR. REAGAN WAS WORKING IN DES MOINES, WHAT WAS THE AGE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THE TWO OF YOU? Shotwell: RONALD REAGAN -- DUTCH REAGAN WAS EXACTLY TEN YEARS OLDER THAN ME. WHEN I WAS FIFTEEN, I FREQUENTED SY GRIFFITH'S MOONLIGHT INN, WHICH IS JUST A LITTLE SHACK OUT OF WHICH HE SOLD A HORRIBLE CONCOCTION KNOWN AS SPIKED BEER. Borg: NOW, WHAT YEARS WOULD THIS HAVE BEEN? Shotwell: I WAS PUSHING SIXTEEN, SO IT WOULD BE, WHAT, 1936 OR SO. AND ANYWAY, WE WERE GROUSING BECAUSE SY GRIFFITH WOULDN'T SELL US ANY SPIKED BEER BECAUSE WE WERE TOO YOUNG. Borg: BUT NOT MR. REAGAN. HE WAS TEN YEARS OLDER THAN YOU. MR. REAGAN WAS TEN YEARS OLDER. HE COULD BUY IT. Shotwell: YEAH, RIGHT. THIS GUY GOES WALKING PAST US AND HE SAID -- HE HEARD US COMPLAINING, AND HE SAID, "I'LL BUY IT FOR YOU." SO WE ALL CAME UP WITH A QUARTER AND WE GIVE IT TO HIM AND WE GO OVER. AND IT'S DUTCH REAGAN AND HE BUYS US A BEER. IT'S MY FIRST ALCOHOLIC DRINK. Borg: SO HE BOUGHT YOU YOUR FIRST DRINK. Shotwell: ABSOLUTELY. Borg: AND YOU WERE UNDER AGE. Shotwell: THAT'S RIGHT. I THINK IT'S NOTEWORTHY THAT THE FORMER -- Yepsen: WHAT'S THE STATUTE OF LIMITATIONS, GOVERNOR, ON -- Shotwell: -- THAT THE FUTURE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES VIOLATED THE LAW BY SELLING ME A DRINK WHEN I WAS ONLY FIFTEEN. ACTUALLY TOO MUCH HAS BEEN MADE OF THAT BECAUSE IN THOSE DAYS YOU'VE GOT TO UNDERSTAND THAT RONALD REAGAN WAS JUST ANOTHER GUY. I MEAN HE WAS NOT YET A CELEBRITY, AND RUNNING INTO HIM WAS NO MORE THAN NOTEWORTHY THAN RUNNING INTO, SAY, DAVE YEPSEN OR YOU, YOU KNOW. HE WAS JUST A VERY COMMON GUY, BUT HE WAS WELL KNOWN. EVERYBODY NEW DUTCH REAGAN. Borg: WAS HE A SOCIAL BUTTERFLY OR -- Shotwell: NOT AT ALL. HE WAS A VERY -- A VERY PRIVATE GUY. HE HAD VERY FEW FRIENDS. HE HAD TWO MALE FRIENDS IN DES MOINES THAT I RECALL. AND HIS BEST FRIENDS WAS MYRTLE MOON, WHO WORKED AT "WHO" AT THE TIME. THAT'S WHERE REAGAN WAS A SPORTSCASTER, YOU KNOW. AND SHE MOTHERED HIM WHEN HE ARRIVED HERE IN DES MOINES. AS A MATTER OF FACT, SHE HELPED HIM PICK OUT HIS NEW NASH AUTOMOBILE THAT HE DROVE. HE DROVE OUT TO CAMP DODGE ALMOST EVERY DAY TO GO SWIMMING, AND I USED TO SEE HIM OUT THERE ALL THE TIME. AGAIN, HE DIDN'T MINGLE. HE WAS A LONER. I MEAN HE'D SAY HI TO YOU AND EVERYTHING, BUT HE JUST DIDN'T -- HE JUST DIDN'T SEEM TO WANT TO MIX. AND A GUY BY THE NAME OF PAUL MCGINN APPROACHED HIM ONE DAY, AND THEY SHOOK HANDS AND BECAME FRIENDS. AND HE BECAME ONE OF DUTCH REAGAN'S FEW FRIENDS IN DES MOINES. Borg: I HEARD NOW IN "BIOGRAPHY" AND NOW THAT HE HAS DIED THAT ONE PERSON WHO ASSOCIATED WITH HIM IN THE WHITE HOUSE SAYING HE NEVER WAS SEEN WITHOUT A SUIT COAT ON, THAT HE DRESSED FOR THE OFFICE. IS THAT THE WAY HE WAS IN DES MOINES? Shotwell: WELL, HE ALWAYS LOOKED SHARP. I REMEMBER BETWEEN THE TIME THAT HE WENT OUT TO HOLLYWOOD TO GET HIS SCREEN TEST AND ACTUALLY GOT THE MOVIE PART, HE CAME BACK TO ROOSEVELT HIGH SCHOOL. AND I HAPPENED TO BE PRESIDENT OF THE STUDENT COUNCIL AT THAT TIME, AND I INTRODUCED HIM. HE WAS WEARING A BEAUTIFUL CAMEL HAIR SUIT, NOT JUST A CAMEL HAIR JACKET BUT A WHOLE SUIT, AND HE LOOKED ABSOLUTELY SPECTACULAR. THE INTERESTING THING ABOUT HIM, HE HAD A TAILOR IN DES MOINES BY THE NAME OF GUS MONNOLOUS, AND GUS MONNOLOUS TOLD DUTCH REAGAN ALWAYS WEAR BROWN. SO MANY, MANY TIMES YOU'D SEE MEN DRESSED IN FORMAL SUITS LIKE WE'RE WEARING, YOU KNOW, EXCEPT DUTCH REAGAN. HE'D BE WEARING BROWN. Borg: WE'RE SPENDING A LOT OF TIME TALKING -- GO AHEAD, DAVE. Yepsen: WELL, I WAS GOING TO ASK WALT, JOY HODGES WAS A SINGER AT "WHO," WHO, AS I UNDERSTAND, HELPED REAGAN GET HIS FIRST SCREEN TEST OUT THERE; IS THAT CORRECT? Shotwell: I DON'T REMEMBER THAT SHE WAS A SINGER. I KNOW THAT SHE WAS AN ASPIRING ACTRESS, BUT SHE, OF COURSE, IS THE ONE WHO SENT REAGAN OUT TO CALIFORNIA AND GOT HIM THE SCREEN TEST. ACTUALLY HE WENT OUT THERE TO DO A SPORTSCAST. WHILE HE WAS THERE, HE DID THE SCREEN TEST AND GOT IN. Borg: SOME OTHER THINGS THAT I UNDERSTAND ABOUT MR. REAGAN IS THAT HE HAD SOME ROMANTIC INVOLVEMENT WHILE IN DES MOINES? Shotwell: YEAH, WELL, RICH CANELLI WAS HIS BEST FRIEND IN DES MOINES, ASIDE FROM PAUL MCGINN. AND RICH CANELLI RAN THE BELVADIER CLUB, WHICH WAS AN ILLEGAL PLACE WHERE YOU COULD DRINK AND GAMBLE. AND DUTCH REAGAN WOULD GO THERE AND DATE THE CHORUS GIRLS, BUT HE NEVER BECAME SERIOUSLY INVOLVED WITH ANY OF THEM. BUT ALONG THE WAY, HE DID GET ENGAGED TO A YOUNG WOMAN WHO LATER JILTED HIM AND WENT OFF AND MARRIED SOMEBODY ELSE. BUT REAGAN WAS NOT ALL BROKEN UP OVER IT. AS A MATTER OF FACT, HE WENT TO HER WEDDING, WHICH IS KIND OF INTERESTING. Borg: HE SEEMS TO ME TO BE A VERY CONFIDENT PERSON, THEN, THAT BEING JILTED DIDN'T HURT HIS FEELINGS AND HE EVEN ENDED UP AT HER WEDDING. Shotwell: HEY, HE WAS THE WORLD'S NICEST GUY. I JUST -- I'VE NEVER HEARD HIM EVER GETTING UPSET ABOUT ANYTHING. Borg: MR. GOLDFORD, I MENTIONED AS I INTRODUCED THIS PROGRAM THAT THERE WERE A FEW IDENTIFYING PHRASES ASSOCIATED WITH MR. REAGAN. ONE OF THEM THAT I DIDN'T MENTION WAS BEING A TEFLON PRESIDENT. WHAT WAS IT -- WE'VE HEARD FROM MR. SHOTWELL THINGS ABOUT OBSERVING HIM HERE, SOCIALLY AND PROFESSIONALLY IN DES MOINES. WHAT WAS IT ABOUT HIS DEVELOPMENT DO YOU THINK IN POLITICS THAT MAYBE GOES BACK TO IOWA ROOTS THAT MADE HIS TEFLON? Goldford: OFTENTIMES WHEN PEOPLE CAMPAIGN FOR THE PRESIDENCY, THEY THINK THEY NEED A LAUNDRY LIST OF POSSIBLE POLICIES. THE VOTERS, THE PUBLIC DON'T LOOK AT PRESIDENTS THAT WAY, PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATES. THEY WANT TO HAVE A SENSE THAT THEY CAN TRUST THIS GUY -- SO FAR GUYS, OF COURSE. THEY WANT TO HAVE A SENSE THAT THEY CAN TEND TO THEIR OWN BUSINESS, THEIR OWN PERSONAL LIVES, AND THE GUY DRIVING THE BUS OR FLYING THE PLANE IS COMPETENT TO DO THAT AND IS GOING TO BE RELIABLE. AND MR. REAGAN WAS ABLE TO GET THAT LEEWAY FROM THE PUBLIC PARTLY BY, AT TIMES, AS IN IRAN CONTRA, THAT PARTICULAR SCANDALOUS THING THAT: IN MY HEART OF HEARTS, I DON'T THINK THAT THERE'S SOMETHING WRONG THERE, BUT THERE MUST BE BECAUSE THEY TELL ME THAT. SO HE OWNED UP TO MISTAKES AT TIMES. SO PEOPLE I THINK BASICALLY FELT THEY COULD TRUST HIM TO DO THE RIGHT THING. EVEN SOME OF HIS OPPONENTS. Yepsen: GOVERNOR RAY, I'M CURIOUS ABOUT REAGAN'S POLITICAL CAREER HERE IN IOWA. DESPITE THE HISTORY AT "WHO" AND "WOC," HIS TIME HERE IN DES MOINES, HE SEEMED TO HAVE A PRETTY TOUGH TIME IN REPUBLICAN POLITICS HERE. IN 1976, WHICH WAS WHEN HE RAN AGAINST GERALD FORD, THE IOWA DELEGATION SPLIT. IN 1980 GEORGE BUSH BEAT HIM IN THE CAUCUSES. WHY WASN'T REAGAN ABLE TO TRANSLATE HIS PERSONAL POPULARITY AND HIS ROOTS AND TIES IN IOWA INTO MORE STRENGTH IN THIS STATE? Ray: I DON'T THINK IT WAS THAT IOWANS DIDN'T LIKE RONALD REAGAN; I THINK THERE WAS A LOYALTY TO ONE IN OFFICE, LIKE GERRY FORD. THEY DID LIKE GERRY FORD. HE WAS A VERY STRAIGHTFORWARD GUY. HE UNDERSTOOD ISSUES. HE UNDERSTOOD PEOPLE. HE WASN'T GLAMOROUS BUT PEOPLE WERE GOING TO STICK WITH WHAT THEY HAD, AND I THINK THAT WAS PART OF THE PROBLEM, IF NOT THE ENTIRE PROBLEM. Borg: YOU HEADED, PROBABLY, THE IOWA DELEGATION WHEN FORD WAS NOMINATED BUT REAGAN WAS RUNNING FOR THAT NOMINATION AGAINST HIM. Ray: WELL, I THINK I DID. Borg: AND THE IOWA DELEGATION WENT WHOLEHEARTEDLY -- Ray: IF NO ONE WAS TWISTING ARMS. Borg: HOW DID THE IOWA DELEGATION VOTE ON THAT? Yepsen: IT WAS 19 FOR FORD AND 17 FOR REAGAN -- Borg: I SEE. AN EVEN SPLIT. Yepsen: -- HEADING INTO KANSAS CITY. SO IT WAS VERY EVENLY -- Ray: IT WASN'T THAT THEY DIDN'T LIKE EITHER ONE OF THEM; IT'S THAT THERE WAS A CHOICE. AND I THINK THE DIFFERENCE WAS THAT GERRY FORD WAS IN. Yepsen: WHAT HAPPENED IN 1980 THAT MEANT REAGAN LOST TO GEORGE BUSH, THE FIRST PRESIDENT BUSH, IN THE CAUCUSES? Ray: WELL, AGAIN, I DON'T KNOW. I DON'T THINK RONALD REAGAN PAID THAT MUCH ATTENTION TO IOWA AFTER WHAT HAD HAPPENED FOUR YEARS PREVIOUSLY. Borg: HE WROTE YOU OFF? Ray: I'M NOT REAL CLEAR. Borg: HE WROTE OFF THE STATE THAT HE HAD SOME ROOTS IN, BUT HE WROTE THAT OFF? Ray: WELL, I DON'T KNOW THAT HE WROTE IT OFF, BUT I DON'T THINK HE SPENT THE TIME HERE. I DON'T THINK HE DEVOTED ATTENTION. I DON'T THINK HE REALLY BUILT AN ORGANIZATION. Borg: BUT THAT WAS NOT GOOD NEWS FOR YOU AS A REPUBLICAN MODERATE, WAS IT, WHEN MR. REAGAN GOT THE NOMINATION, WAS ELECTED PRESIDENT? SOME REPUBLICAN MODERATES EVEN IN IOWA -- I DON'T KNOW ABOUT YOURSELF, BECAUSE YOU'D BEEN A FELLOW GOVERNOR WITH HIM -- BUT THEY WERE SORT OF SHOVED TO THE SIDE IN THE REPUBLICAN PARTY. Ray: WELL, I NEVER FELT THAT I WAS. I THOUGHT I HAD A GOOD RELATIONSHIP WITH THE PRESIDENT, AND WE SUPPORTED HIM TOTALLY. IT'S HARD TO GO BACK AND RECALL EVERY LITTLE THING THAT HAPPENED THAT LONG AGO, BUT I THINK WE WERE TREATED FAIRLY WELL. Borg: DAVE, HOW WOULD YOU ANALYZE THAT? YOU WERE A POLITICAL REPORTER AT THAT TIME? Yepsen: A YOUNG REPORTER. AND I REMEMBER IN THE 1980 CAMPAIGN, GOVERNOR RAY IS CORRECT, RONALD REAGAN DIDN'T WRITE OFF IOWA, BUT HE DID NOT COME HERE THAT OFTEN. AND THERE WERE MANY REPUBLICANS WHO THOUGHT HE WAS TAKING IT FOR GRANTED, THAT HE WAS TOO OLD, HE WAS TOO CONSERVATIVE. I THINK HE MADE ONE BIG TRIP TO MARSHALLTOWN, THAT I CAN RECALL COVERING. AND THIS UNKNOWN, GEORGE HERBERT WALKER BUSH, WAS RUNNING ALL OVER THIS STATE PROVING, ONCE AGAIN, THAT TIME SPENT IN IOWA PAYS DIVIDENDS AT THE CAUCUSES, AND UPSET REAGAN. AND IN RETROSPECT, THE REAGAN PEOPLE SAY IT WAS A GOOD THING, BECAUSE IT WOKE UP THE CAMPAIGN, REAGAN FIRED HIS CAMPAIGN MANAGER, JOHN SEARS, AND WENT ON TO NEW HAMPSHIRE THEN AND STARTED WINNING AGAIN. SO IT WAS A GOOD WAKE-UP CALL FOR REAGAN THAT HE GOT BEAT IN IOWA. Borg: WHAT WERE -- MR. GOLDFORD, WHAT WERE THE POLITICAL PHILOSOPHIES THAT WERE CLASHING AT THAT TIME WITHIN THE PARTY? Goldford: WELL, THE WHOLE THRUST OF THE REPUBLICAN PARTY SINCE THE GOLDWATER INSURGENCY OF 1964 WAS TO CHANGE THE CENTER OF GRAVITY OF THE PARTY. IT USED TO BE ANCHORED IN THE INDUSTRIAL NORTHEAST, IN THE UPPER MIDWEST, THE GREAT LAKES. GOLDWATER REPRESENTED A PUSH FOR MORE SOUTHERN AND WESTERN REPUBLICANISM. THEY TENDED TO BE LESS EUROPE ORIENTED, MORE GO-IT-ALONE. THEY TENDED TO BE A HARDER EDGED, MORE IDEOLOGICAL CONSERVATISM AS OPPOSED TO A GENERAL, TRADITIONAL, MAIN-STREET, BUSINESS-ORIENTED CONSERVATISM. Shotwell: I'M NO POLITICAL EXPERT BUT ONE THING THAT'S ALWAYS INTRIGUED ME IS THAT GOLDWATER GOT DEFEATED FOR HIS ULTRACONSERVATIVE VIEWPOINTS AND REAGAN GOT ELECTED BECAUSE OF HIS ULTRACONSERVATIVE VIEWPOINTS. Goldford: WELL, I THINK I CHALLENGE THAT A LITTLE BIT. I KNOW THE CARTER PEOPLE IN THE END OF '79 OR SO WERE JUST PRAYING TO RUN AGAINST REAGAN, THINKING HE WAS ANOTHER GOLDWATER AND HE'D BE TOO EXTREME. BUT BY THE '80 CAMPAIGN, THAT BECAME AN A-B-C ELECTION, ANYBODY BUT CARTER. Yepsen: WELL, AND IT'S ALSO TRUE, I MEAN THERE'S ABOUT FIFTEEN YEARS BETWEEN THE EVENTS. THE COUNTRY HAD GONE THROUGH VIETNAM AND WAS TIRED OF THAT, AND WATERGATE. AND REAGAN REPRESENTED -- Shotwell: WELL, A LOT OF THINGS HAPPENED IN BETWEEN. Yepsen: YEAH, A LOT MORE OPTIMISTIC VIEW. Shotwell: BUT STILL, RONALD REAGAN DID HAVE MANY OF THE SAME POSITIONS THAT GOLDWATER HAD. Ray: WELL, I THINK YOU SAID IT EARLIER, DENNIS, THAT IT ISN'T JUST A POSITION ON ISSUES; IT'S THE PERSONALITY AND HOW YOU PORTRAY YOURSELF TO THE PUBLIC: DO THEY BELIEVE YOU; DO THEY TRUST YOU; DO THEY WANT TO PUT CONFIDENCE IN YOU? AND I THINK THAT'S WHAT HAPPENED WITH REAGAN. HE HAD TREMENDOUS APPEAL. Yepsen: GOVERNOR RAY, I -- I'M CURIOUS WHY RONALD REAGAN HAD A ROUGH TIME IN IOWA BOTH IN THE GENERAL ELECTION IN 1980 AND THEN IN '84, PARTICULARLY IN THE '84 ELECTION. HE DID CARRY IOWA IN '84, BUT IT WAS BY A SMALLER MARGIN THAN NATIONALLY. WAS HE RESPONSIBLE FOR THE FARM CRISIS OF THE '80S? A LOT OF IOWANS DO NOT REMEMBER THOSE DAYS AS FONDLY AS THE COUNTRY DOES. Ray: WELL, I SUPPOSE WHEN YOU'RE PRESIDENT, YOU'RE GOING TO BE SADDLED WITH THAT RESPONSIBILITY, WHETHER YOU'RE RESPONSIBLE FOR IT OR NOT. I THINK THERE WAS GREAT ADMIRATION FOR HIM BUT HE DIDN'T REALLY HAVE THE SUPPORT AND THE BUILDUP. YOU SAID IT A MOMENT AGO, AND THAT IS THAT IT WOKE UP THE REAGAN CAMPAIGN WHEN HE DIDN'T WIN IOWA THE FIRST TIME AROUND. AND SO A LOT OF IT IS HOW YOU PORTRAY YOUR CANDIDATE AND HOW MUCH WORK YOU DO DOOR TO DOOR. AND HE DIDN'T HAVE THAT. HE HAD THE PERSONALITY. Borg: MR. GOLDFORD, THERE ARE MANY COMPARISONS IN WHAT WE'RE TALKING ABOUT RIGHT NOW WITH THE REAGAN PRESIDENCY AND THAT OF THE CURRENT PRESIDENT. WITH GEORGE W. BUSH, WHAT ARE THE SIMILARITIES THAT YOU SEE BETWEEN THE TWO PRESIDENCIES? AND THEN WE'LL GET TO THE DIFFERENCES. THERE IS AN ATTEMPT RIGHT NOW TO IDENTIFY THE TWO. Goldford: VERY MUCH SO. CERTAINLY THEY'RE BOTH FORMER GOVERNORS, TO BEGIN WITH, BUT I THINK THE CURRENT PRESIDENT SEES HIMSELF POLITICALLY MORE A SON OF REAGAN THAN A SON OF HIS OWN PRESIDENTIAL FATHER, BUSH I. BOTH OF THEM SHARE THIS IDEA THAT A PRESIDENT'S JOB IS TO SET GENERAL DIRECTIONS, GENERAL THEMES, AND DELEGATE THE DETAILS TO SUBORDINATES. PRESIDENT REAGAN WAS FAMOUS FOR WANTING A ONE-PAGE MEMO ON A PARTICULAR POLICY ISSUE WITH TWO POSSIBLE BOXES TO CHECK OFF AT THE BOTTOM, YES OR NO. AND I BELIEVE THE CURRENT PRESIDENT DOES SOMETHING VERY SIMILAR. THEY BOTH EMPHASIZE THE RELIGIOUS NATURE OF MUCH OF AMERICAN CULTURE, AND THAT'S PROVEN VERY POTENT IN OUR POLITICS. Yepsen: I KNOW A LOT OF REPUBLICANS ARE TRYING TO FOSTER THIS NOTION THAT GEORGE BUSH IS ANOTHER RONALD REAGAN, AND I DON'T THINK IT CLICKS. I DON'T THINK IT'S THERE. Borg: WHY IS THAT? Yepsen: WELL, FOR ONE THING, GEORGE W. BUSH IS JUST NOT THE PUBLIC SPEAKER THAT RONALD REAGAN WAS. Goldford: AND THAT MATTERS. Yepsen: AND THAT DOES. AND SO I THINK PRESIDENT BUSH ACTUALLY PERHAPS IS HURT BY SOME OF THESE COMPARISONS. PEOPLE SEE ALL THESE OLD CLIPS OF RONALD REAGAN AND THOSE GREAT SPEECHES HE MADE AND THE OPTIMISM AND ALL THAT. AND FRANKLY, PRESIDENT BUSH JUST ISN'T IN THAT SAME LEAGUE. SO I THINK HE ACTUALLY MAY HURT IN COMPARISON. WHAT DO YOU THINK? Ray: WELL, I THINK, DAVID, THERE ARE SOME COMPARISONS. FOR INSTANCE, WE'VE HEARD A LOT ABOUT RONALD REAGAN AND HIS STRENGTH WHEN IT CAME TO COMMUNISM. AND WHEN HE SAID, "MR. GORBACHEV, TEAR DOWN THIS WALL," A LOT OF PEOPLE SHUDDERED. THEY THOUGHT HOW CAN YOU DO THAT, THAT'S NOT DIPLOMATIC. AND YET, HE SUCCEEDED WITH THAT KIND OF APPROACH. NOW PEOPLE ARE SAYING GEORGE BUSH IS STAYING THERE IN IRAQ; HE'S GOING TO CHANGE WHAT'S HAPPENING IN THE WORLD THAT'S NOT FREE. AND I THINK THERE ARE SOME COMPARISONS THAT CAN BE MADE. AND I WOULD GUESS -- AND IT'S ONLY A GUESS BECAUSE SO MANY THINGS CAN HAPPEN TOMORROW AND THE NEXT DAY AND NEXT WEEK. BUT I WOULD GUESS THAT THIS WILL BENEFIT HIM INDIRECTLY, THE COMPARISON. Yepsen: THE OTHER THING, DEAN, IS I THINK IT'S EARLY TO BE SAYING EXACTLY WHAT THE REAGAN LEGACY IS. DENNIS COULD SHED SOME INSIGHT ON THIS. BUT TYPICALLY AFTER A PRESIDENT DIES, THERE'S A GREAT PERIOD OF NATIONAL MOURNING. A LOT OF ROADS IN IOWA ARE NAMED MCKINLEY AND HARDING BECAUSE PEOPLE THOUGHT THEY WERE GREAT PRESIDENTS. BUT AFTER THEY'VE LEFT OFFICE AND HISTORIANS HAVE A CHANCE TO LOOK AT THEIR RECORD, THEY'RE MUCH HARSHER ON THEM. HARRY TRUMAN IS THE OPPOSITE OF THAT. HIS JOB APPROVAL RATING WAS IN THE TWENTIES WHEN HE LEFT OFFICE, AND NOW HE'S LOOKED AT AS A GREAT PRESIDENT. SO I THINK, FRANKLY, WE'VE GOT TO HAVE A LITTLE TIME BEFORE WE DETERMINE WHAT THE EXACT REAGAN LEGACY IS. Borg: I WANT YOU ALL TO BE THINKING BECAUSE I'M GOING TO ASK LATER, IN THE RUSH TO RENAME THINGS, ARE THERE SOME THINGS THAT OUGHT TO BE RENAMED IN IOWA BECAUSE OF HIS IOWA ROOTS. THINK ABOUT THAT. BUT I DON'T WANT TO GO TOO FAR, THOUGH, MR. GOLDFORD, FROM THE COMPARISON NOW WITH GEORGE W. BUSH. THERE'S ALSO AN ALLIANCE THAT'S BEEN STRUCK WITH TONY BLAIR AND GEORGE W. BUSH IN IRAQ PARTICULARLY. THERE WAS A CLOSENESS BETWEEN MARGARET THATCHER. DO YOU SEE A SIMILARITY THERE? I'VE JUST SAID A SIMILARITY, BUT WHY? Goldford: RIGHT. WELL, BUSH REWARDS AND PRIZES LOYALTY VERY STRONGLY. AND BLAIR HAS BEEN A LOYAL, UNWAVERING ALLIE AS FAR AS POLICY IN IRAQ AND AFGHANISTAN IS CONCERNED. I THINK THE PRESIDENT'S FOCUS THERE, THOUGH, IS INTERNATIONAL. PRESIDENT REAGAN'S ALLIANCE OR LOYALTY OR FRIENDSHIP WITH MARGARET THATCHER WAS MORE IDEOLOGICAL, MORE BASED ON DOMESTIC KINDS OF POLICY. SHE CAME INTO OFFICE TRYING TO BREAK THE POWER OF THE BRITISH UNIONS, TO BREAK DOWN SOME OF THE OLD BRITISH WELFARE STATE. SO THEY WERE VERY MUCH IDEOLOGICAL SOULMATES IN THAT REGARD. Borg: GOVERNOR RAY, WHEN HE MENTIONED UNIONS, IT MADE ME THINK RONALD REAGAN LED AND SPOKE FOR THE SCREEN ACTORS GUILD. HE WAS A DEMOCRAT AT THAT TIME, BUT HE WAS A STRONG UNION PERSON. AND IT WAS DURING THE TIME OF CONGRESSIONAL HEARINGS ON COMMUNISM AND SO ON, AND REAGAN WAS CALLED IN ON THAT. BUT I ALSO RECALL, AS PRESIDENT HE BROKE THE FLIGHT CONTROLLERS UNION. HOW DID THAT -- THEY WERE ON STRIKE AND HE DID NOT ACQUIESCE TO THE UNION AND HIRED REPLACEMENT WORKERS. NOW, HOW DO YOU ACCOUNT FOR A SWITCH LIKE THAT? Ray: WELL, I THINK THAT'S TO HIS CREDIT THAT HE DID WHAT HE THOUGHT WAS RIGHT AND WHAT WAS NEEDED AT THE MOMENT WITH THE POSITION THAT HE HAD. WHEN HE WAS REPRESENTING THE GUILD, HE WAS REPRESENTING THAT UNION, I THINK HE DID A GOOD JOB. I'VE NEVER HEARD ANYTHING TO THE CONTRARY. BUT WHEN THE NATION'S SECURITY WAS AT RISK, HE STEPPED IN AND SAID, "HERE'S WHAT WE HAVE TO DO." I THINK THAT'S WHAT MADE HIM A STRONG LEADER. HE DID WHAT HE THOUGHT HE HAD TO DO. Shotwell: WASN'T THERE ALSO A LAW THAT PROHIBITED STRIKING AGAINST THE GOVERNMENT? Goldford: HE ALSO STRONGLY SUPPORTED SOLIDARITY IN POLAND, WHICH STARTED OFF AS A LABOR UNION. BUT WITH PEDCO, THIS LED SOME CRITICS AT THE TIME TO SUGGEST THAT PRESIDENT REAGAN, A REPUBLICAN, ALWAYS LIKED UNIONS AS LONG AS THEY WERE IN SOME OTHER COUNTRY. Yepsen: WELL, REAGAN WAS ALSO A LEADER AT THAT TIME IN THE EFFORT TO KEEP COMMUNISTS OUT OF UNIONS. WE KIND OF LAUGH ABOUT THAT NOW AND DISMISS IT, BUT AT THE TIME THERE WAS A SERIOUS EFFORT BY COMMUNISTS TO TAKE OVER THE AMERICAN LABOR MOVEMENT. AND THERE WERE A LOT OF LABOR LEADERS LIKE REAGAN WHO WERE HAVING TO STAND UP TO THEM IN INTERNAL BATTLES IN ALL THE UNIONS. Ray: AND THAT TOOK COURAGE. Borg: AS YOU LOOK NOW AT THE REAGAN LEGACY AND PARTICULARLY HERE IN IOWA -- I'VE RAISED THE POINT A MOMENT A AGO, AND SO I GAVE YOU SOME TIME TO THINK ABOUT THIS -- IN THE RUSH TO RENAME THINGS, WE HAVE REAGAN NATIONAL AIRPORT IN WASHINGTON AND THERE'S A RUSH TO RENAME OTHER THINGS AND PUT THIS -- ON ONE OF OUR BILLS TO CURRENCY. I'VE HEARD SOME THINGS, GOVERNOR RAY, THAT YOU SEE IN IOWA WERE POSSIBLE CANDIDATES FOR BEING REAGAN. Ray: WELL, YOU DIDN'T GIVE ME ENOUGH TIME TO THINK ABOUT IT. IT WAS SUGGESTED THAT CAMP DODGE SWIMMING POOL BE NAMED AFTER HIM. UNFORTUNATELY, THEY'RE GOING TO FILL IT. Shotwell: I THINK THEY OUGHT TO PUT A STOP TO THAT. I'D LIKE TO SEE THE PEOPLE IN JOHNSTON RISE UP IN PROTEST AND RENAME CAMP DODGE, YOU KNOW, THE RONALD REAGAN CAMP DODGE SWIMMING POOL OR SOMETHING. I JUST THINK IT'S AN ABSOLUTE CRIME BECAUSE HE SPENT SO MUCH TIME THERE. HE WAS OUT THERE EVERY DAY PRACTICALLY. Yepsen: I THINK WE NEED A GOOD IRISH BAR IN DES MOINES, AND WE COULD NAME IT THE REAGAN INN AND SERVE SPIKED BEER. BUT SERIOUSLY, I KIND OF -- SOME OF THIS RENAME BUSINESS STRIKES ME AS BEING OFF-KEY RIGHT NOW. I THINK WHEN YOU NAME TOO MANY THINGS AFTER SOMEBODY, YOU REALLY KIND OF CHEAPEN THAT LEGACY. HE BUILT HIS OWN LEGACY AND IT SPEAKS FOR ITSELF. Goldford: THERE'S A REPUBLICAN ACTIVIST, GROVER NORQUIST, WHO, EVEN BEFORE THE PRESIDENT DIED, FOR YEARS HAS BEEN ON A CRUSADE TO HAVE AT LEAST SOME MAJOR MONUMENT OR SOMETHING IN EVERY ONE OF THE FIFTY STATES NAMED AFTER PRESIDENT REAGAN. SO THIS IS A LONGSTANDING PROGRAM ON THE PART OF A LOT OF REPUBLICAN ACTIVISTS. Yepsen: THERE IS A MONUMENT IN DES MOINES ON FOURTH AND COURT. IT'S A VERY MODEST SORT OF THING. Ray: VERY MODEST. Yepsen: AND THAT STRIKES ME AS BEING APPROPRIATE. Goldford: WELL, THEY'RE THINKING MT. RUSHMORE TYPES OF THINGS. Shotwell: IT'S RIGHT OUTSIDE A BONDSMAN'S OFFICE. I MEAN IT'S NOT EXACTLY -- IT'S NOT EXACTLY IN A PLACE OF HONOR. Borg: I NOTICE YOU'VE GOT THE BOOK HERE ON THE TABLE, AND I WANT TO HOLD IT. THIS IS THE BOOK THAT WAS WRITTEN, THE BIOGRAPHY OF PRESIDENT REAGAN. AND YOU, WALT SHOTWELL, CONSULTED ON IT? Shotwell: I SPENT A COUPLE DAYS WITH THE AUTHOR OF THAT BOOK. AND HE HAD MADE UP HIS MIND BEFORE HE EVER WROTE THAT BOOK THAT RONALD REAGAN WAS SHALLOW AND UNFEELING. AND THE TWO DAYS I SPENT WITH THIS GUY, HE KEPT HARPING ON THAT, YOU KNOW, LIKE WHEN HE BROKE UP WITH HIS GIRLFRIEND AND HE DIDN'T FALL APART. THIS AUTHOR CITED THAT AS AN EXAMPLE OF RONALD REAGAN HAD NO FEELINGS SO OF COURSE HE WASN'T BROKEN UP. THIS GUY WROTE THE WORST BOOK I THINK THAT'S EVER BEEN WRITTEN ABOUT A CELEBRITY. Yepsen: THE MORRIS BOOK IS DISAPPOINTING BECAUSE MORRIS HAD GREAT ACCESS TO REAGAN AND DIDN'T WRITE A TRADITIONAL BIOGRAPHY. HE'S A GREAT AUTHOR. HE JUST BLEW IT WITH THIS ONE. THERE ARE TWO STORIES IN THERE THAT ARE WORTH REPEATING. ONE IS REAGAN AND BUSH HAVING LUNCH -- AND THEY'RE VERY CRITICAL OF MY NEWSPAPER FOR BEING TOO LIBERAL. AND THE OTHER WAS REAGAN BOUGHT A WALTHER PPK PISTOL IN DES MOINES AND CARRIED IT WITH HIM THROUGHOUT HIS PRESIDENCY. Borg: GENTLEMEN, THANK YOU VERY MUCH FOR YOUR INSIGHTS. IT'S BEEN A PLEASURE TALKING WITH YOU AND RECALLING. WE'RE OUT OF TIME AND THAT'S IT FOR THIS WEEKEND'S EDITION OF "IOWA PRESS." WE'LL BE BACK NEXT WEEKEND AT OUR REGULAR AIRTIMES: 7:30 FRIDAY; SUNDAY AT NOON. I'M DEAN BORG. THANKS FOR JOINING US TODAY.
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